Boards with Purpose - Zoe Black and Mark Osborn

00:00:00:11 - 00:00:30:07

Phil Butler

Today I'm here with the team from Happy Paws, Happy Hearts here to chat about impact measurement within the not for profit sector. This really key area of where not for profits need to be able to be much better at putting out how they are making a difference in what they're doing. Zoe Black is founder and CEO, and Mark Osborn, chair of the organisation.

 

00:00:30:09 - 00:00:45:10

Phil Butler

I'm. We're going to explore a little bit of the background of the organisation, touch on areas of culture, operations and governance. But maybe to kick things off a little bit, Zoe, tell us how this all came about.

 

00:00:45:12 - 00:01:08:02

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Thanks for having us. Happy paws, happy hearts started a bit over ten years ago, and it was, really geared towards supporting people experiencing social isolation. As you would have gathered something to do with animals as well. So our unique way to bring people out of socially isolating experiences is to bring them into work with animals.

 

00:01:08:04 - 00:01:28:06

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

It's not a matching service. We're not providing pets to those individuals. What we're doing is we're bringing them in to work with animals, that have a need. And they do that as part of group programs, and that provides a really good foundation to learn skills, meet other people, and feel an amazing sense of purpose as they themselves, you know, support those animals on their journey.

 

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:50:24

Phil Butler

Well, an amazing thing to be doing. And we'll get into a bit more of the nitty gritty of how you measuring the impact of that Mark. You come from a very different, background. And as chair of the organisation, tell me a little bit about your journey and, and in joining Happy Paul's Happy, Happy Hearts.

 

00:01:51:01 - 00:02:15:16

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah. I'm so I had a very entrepreneurial career, a number of industries. And about 25 years ago, I ended up owning up an insurance business with a partner and was lucky enough to sort of be able to build that to a decent size. So that ten years ago. So I've had that entrepreneurial journey of, salaries on the mortgage and so on in the early days and coming through the other side of that.

 

00:02:15:18 - 00:02:35:09

Mark Osborn Chair

And when I retired, my wife and I, decided to put some money into a foundation to sort of help with, not for profits. And I wanted to follow that with some of the experiences and expertise I'd built up in the corporate sector. So when I met Zoe, I found the worthy recipient of all that attention.

 

00:02:35:11 - 00:02:46:09

Phil Butler

Fantastic. Great to hear. And so it just tell us a little bit about this idea of animals and social connection. How did that idea come about?

 

00:02:46:11 - 00:03:17:00

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately for me, that did come from a lived experience, journey, which obviously has, a beautiful outcome today. But I myself experienced social isolation from surviving, quite, traumatic domestic violence. And that was obviously a really difficult time in my life. And I consider myself very, very fortunate to be here. And I also had a big journey to rebuild after those traumatic events.

 

00:03:17:01 - 00:03:39:15

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

I was diagnosed with PTSD. I was in a fortunate position to be able to have psychological support through that journey. But for me, what I felt I was grieving was, is really this loss of myself and this loss of this, like, joyful, happy person. Prior to those events. And so I wanted to return to something that really reminded me of who I was.

 

00:03:39:17 - 00:04:01:11

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And I grew up in country New South Wales. We loved animals growing up. My parents are wildlife carers. So for me that that calling was to go back to animals. I spent time volunteering at a rescue shelter and I found obviously tremendous value in in spending time with animals. It was, you know, immediately kind of brought joy to my heart.

 

00:04:01:11 - 00:04:27:21

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

But I also found these amazing people working for a purpose, pulling together, under, you know, quite extreme circumstances in sheltering at that time. And those amazing people gave me hope that, you know, there are good people out there. I could, you know, learn to trust people again and trust in myself. And so I made a commitment that one day I would come back and give to that organisation that I had you know, I felt really returned me to life.

 

00:04:27:23 - 00:04:54:14

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

So that was sort of the, you know, the grounding and, and difficult days. And then, you know, many years on, I was, you know, fortunate to receive some support from a philanthropist who saw that, you know, that that could be a possibility that people experiencing social isolation would come out to see animals that seemed like a really viable drawcard to to take yourself out of that, difficult situation.

 

00:04:54:16 - 00:05:12:23

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And, you know, I had that instinct from my own experiences that it could be beneficial. So it's been, you know, more than healing to see just how many people really can have these tremendous outcomes from taking that brave step out of their circumstances for whatever their life experiences are.

 

00:05:13:00 - 00:05:49:22

Phil Butler

What what an amazing journey. I'm mindful each year ECD does its governance and performance survey. And the results. When we asked directors about how well their organisation is doing last year, it said 84% said that they are successful in achieving their outcomes. And that's a wonderful statistic, but one that I always have some cynicism about. You've gone that extra step in terms of measuring impact.

 

00:05:49:24 - 00:05:56:13

Phil Butler

Do you want to tell us a little bit about that journey on how you came out with the right things to measure?

 

00:05:56:15 - 00:06:31:13

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Yeah, it has definitely been a journey, and I wouldn't say that we've always, got it right. But I was really determined that we weren't just going to do the activities for activity's sake. Yeah, I really want to make sure that if we were going through those hard steps of drawing people out of social isolation, that they would, in fact, have some benefits from being that, and because of my own experiences and, and how difficult it is sometimes to share where you are at with your life, really sensitive to in the way that we would go about measuring that impact.

 

00:06:31:15 - 00:06:56:17

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And so while we did start with the traditional output type measures, you know, how many people were attending, how many hours were they contributing to the animals, how many hours were they out? Receiving? Yeah. Social connection as in time inside sessions. We were, you know, fortunate to kind of work with social outcomes, to really unpack that a bit further, to look, you know, prepare a theory of change quite early on.

 

00:06:56:17 - 00:07:30:13

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

It was only a few years into the organisation's journey that we prepared that theory of change, and thought about how we could measure the outcomes. A big reason I engage in that early is because of those mistakes, actually, because we actually did try some different tools that were recommended to us, such as a PTSD symptoms tool. And I observed some of the participants to really recoil backwards when we presented them with that tool, because of course, coming to our programs, it's a break away from the medicalized, you know, journey that they're on and you know, sometimes it's the only thing that they're doing outside of those medical appointments.

 

00:07:30:13 - 00:07:52:07

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

So to present them with something that looks quite medicalized in order for us to kind of measure whether or not we're having an impact, just didn't feel right. So to find the right tools that matched with our theory of change, but didn't retraumatize people in the process was fundamental. I feel, to, you know, building the right culture as well in the organisation.

 

00:07:52:07 - 00:08:13:13

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

I think that gives the team more, encouragement to use the tools. Because they know that they're doing it in a way that's sensitive to the participants in their lives. And I'll add one more thing to, that, you know, social outcomes. And Sandy really encouraged in me from the very beginning was if you were going to measure, make sure it's something that you can give back to those people.

 

00:08:13:13 - 00:08:37:10

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

You are, you know, gathering that data from. So what has been incredible is that our participants can take the outcomes reports and actually advocate for themselves in the settings from which they might receive funding so that they can say, look, I am improving, I need more capacity support. But I'm on this journey and I think that's just been, you know, really, really an incredible gift back.

 

00:08:37:12 - 00:08:44:12

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

If we're going to take those, reports and, and, and use them for the purposes of actually showing the outcomes that we're creating change.

 

00:08:44:18 - 00:09:07:04

Phil Butler

Wonderful. Mark. Innovator, entrepreneur, chartered accountant in, Informa live bringing those skills and backgrounds to board like happy pours heavy hearts. What was the journey like for you?

 

00:09:07:06 - 00:09:27:04

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah, I came to the role with a good understanding of of how I thought about should work. I had a number of other chair roles. But I think, I think I had to bring a lot of humility to the role as well, because the concept of impact and impact measurement is a bit alien in the corporate sector.

 

00:09:27:06 - 00:09:49:22

Mark Osborn Chair

Obviously, you've got stakeholders which are typically shareholders and you've got that profit motive, which really is often the guiding light. But you come into this, this world. An impact is a very nebulous concept. So being able to get to grips with what that meant and understanding the participant journey, having not experienced that myself, was a big part of the early stages.

 

00:09:49:24 - 00:10:16:13

Mark Osborn Chair

I think there's, a lot of commonality between governance in a, in a corporate setting and in a non-for-profit setting. The key difference is that that impact piece. And for me, the theory of change was a new concept, which is why do we exist as a not for profit, what problem we're looking to solve, what are the outputs from the work we're doing, and what are the outcomes experienced by the beneficiaries?

 

00:10:16:13 - 00:10:38:04

Mark Osborn Chair

That's really different thinking from a corporate side. So having having sort of learnt what that meant and started to learn about it with help from Sandy Blackburn, one of our, one of our directors. It, it becomes easier to, to frame a corporate strategy and the strategic plan and measurements around delivery of strategy with that, theory of change in mind.

 

00:10:38:04 - 00:10:45:00

Mark Osborn Chair

So that was the kind of missing piece for me. And once I got that, it became a lot easier to kind of be effective in my role.

 

00:10:45:02 - 00:11:05:03

Phil Butler

But the whole board has to buy into this, like it. It's part of the culture of the organisation. Right. Did you find that at all challenging that people would have slightly different perspectives on on what this meant? This, you know, with the theory of change or the broader concept of impact?

 

00:11:05:05 - 00:11:31:18

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah, I think the board members come to it obviously with their own perspectives. Definitely. But but involving, every director in that process and having a day where you formulate the theory of change together and you see it coming to life between the executive team with input from the board, that that document then becomes really important because it creates that alignment and grounds everyone in an agreed methodology.

 

00:11:31:20 - 00:11:50:23

Mark Osborn Chair

And they can get any differences of opinion out that they want to during that effort. But but with collaborative process and agreement. Then they agreed to sort of sign that off. And then I can begin my work around. We have a strategy roadmap methodology which we could go into, if you like, which then operationalise is that work.

 

00:11:51:00 - 00:11:57:22

Mark Osborn Chair

And you know that if you've got the framework right, then everything that cascades down from that, is much more effective.

 

00:11:57:24 - 00:12:16:00

Phil Butler

Yeah, I was going to touch on that. Governance is a team game, right. So it flows through the CEO and throughout the management team. And so I think you've been very good at making sure that impact sits within the culture of the organisation. Tell us a bit about that journey.

 

00:12:16:02 - 00:12:43:18

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Yeah okay. It's so, so important. I think one of the, areas that I noticed when I first, worked in not for profit side before starting heavy was Happy Hearts is that, people can overlay their own personal views on what they think that charity or that social enterprise should be doing, and then that can lead to sort of misguided, you know, well-intentioned from that perspective, behaviours.

 

00:12:43:20 - 00:13:08:20

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

But the difference with having a really robust, you know, theory of change that is then measured and communicated back and part of the language and part of every reporting and part of what we call our all hearts. When the staff come together, is it really puts that, you know, back out with the beneficiaries to share their journey to, you know, feedback into how programs should iterate as we, you know, receive that feedback.

 

00:13:08:22 - 00:13:32:04

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

So, I feel like that, I guess directs passion in the right way in that it really needs to highlight how we and the work that we're doing, how that is all benefit to, you know, what we were established to do. And, you know, the the board is fundamental in that too. You know, these these reports don't just sit with my team.

 

00:13:32:08 - 00:13:56:00

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

They don't just go out to funders. My CEO report to the board always starts with impact. And who are we impacting. And a story and data to go with that, story so that we keep that front and centre. And, you know, it's, it's just actually part of how we, you know, run the organisation. So it it really helps keep it centred, I would say.

 

00:13:56:02 - 00:14:13:03

Phil Butler

And does it make it easier in terms of board meetings or oversight from a board perspective, to have that really clear, alignment from purpose to strategy and being able to identify where you're at at any given time?

 

00:14:13:05 - 00:14:30:21

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing I love about, so these board packs is like on the first slide, there's always an impact story. So it's an individual with a photograph and it talks about how they how they started with us, the journey they've been on and highlights a particular success. They might have gone back into the education system.

 

00:14:30:23 - 00:14:53:00

Mark Osborn Chair

They might have come through all of our programs and found a job that's first prize for us to come from, you know, social isolation into being an active participant in the workforce with their own networks. So that story is really good because it grounds the whole board in our participant journey and minute one of the board meeting. And that really sets the framework for the meeting, really sets the scene.

 

00:14:53:02 - 00:15:03:22

Mark Osborn Chair

And then beyond that, we have dashboards that do talk about the qualitative aspects of the difference that we're making in people's lives, and how they're journeying through our processes and getting outcomes.

 

00:15:03:24 - 00:15:25:10

Phil Butler

I think that's probably one of the things occurring a lot more in the for purpose sector is this whole year of how are we hearing the voice of the client, how we knowing that, that what we're doing is making a real difference. So I love that concept of that story at the at the beginning of the meeting.

 

00:15:25:10 - 00:15:29:15

Phil Butler

And I'm assuming there isn't a lot of data that sits behind that story.

 

00:15:29:20 - 00:15:31:07

Mark Osborn Chair

Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

 

00:15:31:12 - 00:15:53:24

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

I think, too, because we, have always you can see between Mark and I quite entrepreneurial and we will, you know, take new opportunities, but we actually make sure that when we're taking those opportunities again, we go back to, you know, confirm that we are taking the right steps for the participants. So to give you an example of what we were covering just last week, we have embraced a new partnership.

 

00:15:54:01 - 00:16:21:13

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

We have typically worked with a lot of rescue organisations, and that has been incredible and very purposeful work for the participants. We in our Sydney partnership will work with Assistance Dogs Australia. So, you know, it's not it's a not a hard day for me to sign off and say that we'd like to work with a couple of hundred Labrador puppies, but we need to make sure that in doing those programs that they will actually still have the kinds of impacts we're able to measure through our rescue organisation work.

 

00:16:21:15 - 00:16:49:21

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And so within the very first pilot that was run with that new organisation and new kind of, I guess, tweak on what we had been doing, we were able to show with a really simple, very well validated tool, the impact for those participants in a short period of time, which can give the board confidence, the partnership confidence, my team confidence that this was the right iteration for the organisation because it's something that, you know, could go on for a very long time.

 

00:16:49:23 - 00:17:04:21

Phil Butler

Wonderful. Both the chair and CEO are quite entrepreneurial. It sounds fantastic to some of the other directors, and some of the staff get a bit nervous when I see you chatting about stuff.

 

00:17:04:23 - 00:17:34:14

Mark Osborn Chair

Well, it's interesting as chair, you kind of have to adjust your behaviours according to the nature of the CEO. So in board meetings I don't tend to show my entrepreneurial side too much. I tend to be more around the process and making sure we're discussing the right things and coming to a good conclusion. So I put that to one side, and we've also got a very capable CFO who grounds us all the time in, in the numbers and, and the measures and all the operational KPIs that of course, go with delivering impact.

 

00:17:34:14 - 00:17:36:24

Mark Osborn Chair

So I think we've got that fairly well looked after.

 

00:17:36:24 - 00:17:59:17

Phil Butler

Very important to have that CFO to keep everyone grounded. Yeah. But maybe I'll just touch on this, risk and risk appetite in that regard. Have you got a reasonably good balance around the board table with regard to risk appetite? Everyone's kind of on the same, in the same place with regard to the risk appetite.

 

00:17:59:19 - 00:18:23:00

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah. We've got, sort of a comprehensive risk appetite, statement that we put in place a couple of years ago. And we had quite long discussions about about that document, and it segments the risk into various components. And we have varying scores depending on, you know, what the aspect is. And we've reached, good agreement on what that looks like in context of the organisation.

 

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:46:19

Mark Osborn Chair

And I think when you come to, recruit new directors, the clearer you are about your culture and your stance with regard to those areas, the easier it is to select the right people to join your board. And they self-select when they understand how you operate. So I think that lends itself to sustaining that culture as the board composition changes.

 

00:18:46:21 - 00:19:09:16

Phil Butler

One of the real risks for every organisation, but certainly for you, is the CEO and with with the CEO succession planning coming from. And what happens if the CEO's not about now you've actually spent some time away from the organisation. So it tell us a little bit about that.

 

00:19:09:18 - 00:19:42:13

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

That was an amazing opportunity. So social impact Leadership Australia and, and philanthropically funded recognise that a lot of social leaders, not for profit leaders, social entrepreneurs hit a point of burnout and then we can lose them from the sector completely, if not even more devastating consequences for them as individuals. So they select a group. And one of the conditions of being part of that program is that you take three months not to touch the business completely self-directed sabbatical.

 

00:19:42:15 - 00:20:06:07

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

That was a terrifying prospect for me, having done ten years on the on the business, having had children, and, and taking phone calls from the maternity ward and taking babies through boardrooms, to say, okay, I've no one is to call me and I'm not to call them. And for three months I wake up each day and say, what does that we want to do today?

 

00:20:06:09 - 00:20:32:08

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

So it was, confronting and also, you know, one of the most magnificent things I feel I've done, not just for myself, but also the organisation, because our incredible deputy CEO stepped up, reported to the board. And, really, we got to see, you know, some of the gaps that we needed to fill. And, and how we need to kind of further increase our senior leadership team, gave me obviously, you know, new perspective as well.

 

00:20:32:08 - 00:20:46:11

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

What, what what did the next ten years look like for Happy Paws. Happy hearts. And did I have the right skill set to, you know, keep leading the organisation? These are really hard questions I asked myself. And also that the deputy, you know, CEO was asking herself to.

 

00:20:46:13 - 00:20:51:01

Phil Butler

What was the board's perspective? How did you find that?

 

00:20:51:03 - 00:21:27:09

Mark Osborn Chair

Three months after I got over the initial panic, the challenging part about it was not knowing whether they would come back because she might go off on this sabbatical and say, I've done my ten years, I've got some other things I need to work on. So as a board, we're kind of in a holding pattern. And we agreed that we would, so downplay the strategic deliverables for the quarter where we're our deputy CEO took over and just give her the easiest possible path through that process was, and in the end, it did go smoothly, but there was some good discussions and good planning that went on to make that successful.

 

00:21:27:09 - 00:21:33:00

Mark Osborn Chair

And I'm pleased to say so we did come back and she's bigger and better than ever. So it worked out really well.

 

00:21:33:01 - 00:21:51:08

Phil Butler

Yeah, it's it's a great idea. And I think, well, well done for having the courage to actually do that as a board. Did you feel as though you had to get more into the weeds, into the detail of the organisation with Zoe not around?

 

00:21:51:10 - 00:22:10:16

Mark Osborn Chair

No, not really that, we're very lucky for a small. We've only got 35 employees, so we're not large, but we're very lucky to have someone so talented in the role who's been with Zoe a long time. And we had absolute confidence that she'd step up. And as long as we didn't overload her, that, things would be would progress as normal.

 

00:22:10:16 - 00:22:28:14

Mark Osborn Chair

So we carried on as if nothing had changed. And she reported to the board and, all the normal reports came up. So we would have been aware if they'd been any issues. And she's very good communicator. So we just made it known that we were there to help. If anything cropped up in between board meetings. But, pleased to say it went very smoothly.

 

00:22:28:16 - 00:22:40:08

Phil Butler

Yeah. And so when you came back in after that period of time with the things that you noticed had changed in the organisation with you, with you not being around?

 

00:22:40:09 - 00:23:03:17

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like one of the key benefits was actually that some of the senior leaders, while the deputy CEO was stepping up, were taking an opportunity to step up as well. And once they've taken those steps, they don't want to, you know, return back to, you know, where they were. So I think it built a lot of, new opportunities in terms of their skill sets.

 

00:23:03:19 - 00:23:24:14

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

We, you know, they had to adjust to also a new version of me, because, you know, we kind of we, we laugh about it now, but I would say it was Kelpie mode CEO, you know, just constantly running around to just make sure everything was on track and, you know, going at quite a pace. And I came back really well.

 

00:23:24:16 - 00:24:00:12

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Well, we now called Beagle mode is focus and measured, pace of the scale up because I was aware at just how close I could have come to burnout, and also that I was doing compassion in a way that was not healthy and that I may have actually bred that into my culture. And so lots of really deep conversations with all of the senior leaders, and particularly my deputy CEO, about what does compassion look like and how important it is to take breaks where you don't have your phone on you all of the time.

 

00:24:00:14 - 00:24:07:18

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And that will actually fuel you to, you know, keep actually creating the impact that we all want to create.

 

00:24:07:20 - 00:24:17:06

Phil Butler

And did you notice the relationship with those exec executives and in particular the deputy city? Has changed with the board over that time.

 

00:24:17:08 - 00:24:28:16

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

We've always had really good engagement with the board. So throughout our year, different leaders will come and present to the board. So they have those relationships, you know, what are your thoughts, Mark? You feel.

 

00:24:28:16 - 00:24:41:23

Mark Osborn Chair

Like it. Yeah. And we we are quite presently where often we go to sessions and experience what the participants experience and where around the organisation a fair bit. So that wasn't so much of a change in our situation.

 

00:24:42:00 - 00:25:04:20

Phil Butler

But it goes to the heart of contemporary governance, where the board's a lot more involved, I think, than it was a decade ago. And certainly in human services areas that need to really understand what's going on within the organisation. Mark, how do you get that balance with wanting to know sufficient, but not getting too much into the weeds?

 

00:25:04:20 - 00:25:08:20

Phil Butler

Do you find that, a challenge or you're reasonably comfortable?

 

00:25:08:22 - 00:25:25:23

Mark Osborn Chair

I think that comes down to a lot of trust between the CEO and the chair. So sorry. And I've got a lot of respect for each other's roles, and we don't cross those boundaries. And I encouraged her. In the early days, all the board reports tended to be quite positive, and I knew there was stuff going on that we needed to know about.

 

00:25:25:23 - 00:25:49:08

Mark Osborn Chair

So I said, can you put a slide in there telling us what are the problems you're facing and where are you struggling? Because that's where we should be helping. So every, every board fact we have, three areas where Zoe, you know, it wants to say that this is a problem. So with that transparency, I think it gives us confidence that there if issues arise, we'll be told about them.

 

00:25:49:10 - 00:26:08:19

Mark Osborn Chair

We'll understand them through the dashboards if we've got good reporting systems, and then we can sort of deal with them as they arise. So I'm very confident that that, that there aren't any risks in that area. Not not, you know, I've seen other boards where that isn't the case, you know, CEOs, you know, renowned for maybe pushing certain things under the carpet.

 

00:26:08:21 - 00:26:14:17

Mark Osborn Chair

And I think one of the roles of the chair is to create an environment where that communication can be very transparent.

 

00:26:14:19 - 00:26:21:13

Phil Butler

What my observation is organisations with a really good culture, you hear the bad news quicker than you do. The good news?

 

00:26:21:16 - 00:26:23:00

Mark Osborn Chair

Yes, absolutely. So you do.

 

00:26:23:00 - 00:26:42:15

Phil Butler

Want to be able to find out what's going on within the organisation, what's keeping. So what you like? Not so how do you make sure that you're focussed on providing the right amount of bad information because you don't want to overdo it, right?

 

00:26:42:17 - 00:27:20:19

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

No. And I think that's why the the structure that Mark was talking about is really, really helpful because we can start with, you know, a participant impact story and data. You know, we can go through some of the highlights. And then literally the last slide is in beagle mode. What's keeping Zoe up at night? And just that routine means that I select, you know, the three things that are keeping me up at night so that we openly share that and and to sit around the, the board table, that I feel creates that, you know, really nice balance between we are progressing in the right way and it's really reaffirming for, you know

 

00:27:20:19 - 00:27:37:20

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

me to know that each time I go to put together this year puts, there's a number of stories I can choose from. And, you know, to have to choose one can be quite hard. And different points throughout the year. So it gives the, the positive but also, you know, the necessary hard work. It is part of our values that this work comes with a courageous heart.

 

00:27:37:20 - 00:27:49:07

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

It is a journey. And this does go up and down. So it feels very values aligned as well to, you know, be kind of talking about our hopeful hearts, but also our courageous hearts and the things that we're, you know, working through.

 

00:27:49:09 - 00:28:17:08

Phil Butler

Like make sense. You are in the environment of, changing this, scheme. And obviously that's having an impact on all disability service providers. How are you managing that journey? Is that going to have a, an impact this year as well as in five years? Time?

 

00:28:17:10 - 00:28:47:01

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah, we're in a fortunate position that, for a not for profit, around three quarters of our revenue, is self-sustaining in the sense that our participants are in the NDIS funded. So we are able to charge for our sessions. So that's very helpful because it reduces our need to go out for philanthropic funding. Continually. But on the other hand, it means we're very reliant on some form of stability in the sort of policy settings of the NDIS.

 

00:28:47:03 - 00:29:23:03

Mark Osborn Chair

And sometimes for a small organisation, that can be very challenging when a rule changes. And maybe the person who frames that rule change doesn't realise that that can turn our organisation upside down in terms of reporting systems, even availability of funding. So it's definitely a big challenge for our sector and we're not exempt from that. And I think the way we try and resolve that is, is to stay very close to the policy framework as it's evolving, with our CFO to try and make sure that we're as agile as we can be to deal with those changes when we know they're going to come.

 

00:29:23:04 - 00:29:36:01

Mark Osborn Chair

They they come with disappointing frequency and understand why there's a lot of reason to try and clean up the sector. But unfortunately, organisations like ours can be collateral damage in some of that.

 

00:29:36:03 - 00:30:08:06

Phil Butler

Yeah, absolutely. There's been lots of conversation in Australia over the last 18 months about productivity. I had the pleasure of joining one of the round tables talking about productivity, and it really came to me in that session about how different organisations are dealing with this concept of measuring outcomes, but then to be throwing the additional thing of a productivity lens on those outcomes, is that something you've gone down?

 

00:30:08:06 - 00:30:13:14

Phil Butler

So in terms of measuring the productivity of your organisation?

 

00:30:13:16 - 00:30:39:11

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Look, I'd say we're we're very much focussed on the outcome measurements and what we're looking for, because I'm so acutely aware of the the burnout in the social sector is, you know, wellbeing. We really want to make sure that, we're creating a, employment opportunity for our trainers that's meaningful, that they can see the impact, but that doesn't burn them out in the process.

 

00:30:39:11 - 00:31:07:03

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And it's, it's a it's a really big challenge. So I think that's more of the challenge rather than productivity. I mean, there's there's times when you want to actually say to your staff like tools down, you know, you actually do need the rest to come back at your, your best. So yeah, I, I find that, that's probably more the piece that keeps me up at night, the wellbeing and really educating the team on what healthy empathy looks like, what you know, what it looks like to take care of yourself.

 

00:31:07:03 - 00:31:38:18

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And as I mentioned before, one of my big points of awareness, you know, throughout the sabbatical experience was I was doing compassion all wrong. Compassion to me look like diving in all of the time and maximum maxing out my hours and being ever available. Actually, compassion comes with a lot of boundaries, and when you put those boundaries in place and you're not diving in and you're jumping into the hole with people as they're going through those challenges, you can actually pull them back out and you can actually come with the right energy to address the challenges that they're having.

 

00:31:38:20 - 00:31:39:15

Phil Butler

Makes sense.

 

00:31:39:18 - 00:31:59:06

Mark Osborn Chair

And I think just on that productivity piece, the way I see that, is around our location. So we're in seven different locations now, Darwin, Makai, all the way down to Hobart, and our Brisbane location is by far the largest. So we get a lot of economies of scale from running that maybe 300 people a week coming through there.

 

00:31:59:08 - 00:32:23:17

Mark Osborn Chair

In some of those more remote locations, we might have six, eight, ten, 12 people coming each week. So from a productivity point of view, those large locations make sense from a commercial point of view. But they're not always where the funding's available. And we're not also able to spread out our work into regional locations that need it. So that's where that tension comes between impact and the commercial imperatives.

 

00:32:23:19 - 00:32:41:14

Mark Osborn Chair

And again, our CFO produces great reports around profitability by location. And our strategy is informed by now building sort of large centres with a hub and spoke model where we can get those efficiencies, but also spread into some of those more areas of need and in regional Australia.

 

00:32:41:16 - 00:32:51:18

Phil Butler

And that's a lovely segue. I wanted to chat a little bit about what's coming next, and I'm assuming scale is at the heart of this, right of two.

 

00:32:51:19 - 00:32:54:09

Mark Osborn Chair

Entrepreneurs.

 

00:32:54:11 - 00:33:00:23

Phil Butler

Making this scalable. And but I'm assuming from what I'm hearing that it is, Scott.

 

00:33:01:00 - 00:33:25:11

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

It is. I mean, even the design of the, intervention, if you like, was scalable at its heart. In the past, I would say the animal matching is what people have in mind when they think about services where animals are involved. A 1 to 1 very deep impact, approach where you train an animal to be matched to a human to get them independence outcomes, say happy thoughts.

 

00:33:25:11 - 00:33:47:13

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Happy hearts was always the group model, was always part of it. Because, you know, if you are going to transition back to school or into a workplace or into independent community roles, you're going to be in a team environment. So we need to get that social connection happening in a way that is positive around the animals. So the group model lent itself to being scalable.

 

00:33:47:15 - 00:34:26:14

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

What Mark was talking to earlier about regions. They take time and they you need like you need quite a long runway to get that location to the right, you know, level of productivity. That is, is actually, you know, sustainable and so having a model that can work in Brisbane that says, you know, over 300 people at times and replicating that into Sydney affords the organisation the opportunity to spend more time in the regions that, you know, need more, you know, community engagement and encouragement to have all these different community nuances that we want to be there for.

 

00:34:26:19 - 00:34:28:24

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

But we'll take, you know, longer.

 

00:34:29:01 - 00:34:45:19

Phil Butler

Love it, Mark, in terms of learnings for you. And if other organisations, other boards were considering how we better measure impact learnings that you would, provide to people?

 

00:34:45:21 - 00:35:13:04

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah, I think I think having a really deadly theory of change is essential. And I think there's a number of theories of change which are quite woolly and sandy from, social outcomes, really. We ran a full day strategy session with the board and the executive to get that right. So I wouldn't underplay the need to really be very, very clear about why you exist and how you're going to achieve the outcomes you want to achieve.

 

00:35:13:06 - 00:35:32:19

Mark Osborn Chair

Once that's done, I think you can you can then import that information into your strategy and, and then having a methodology to turn a long term strategy into a series of what we've done, 90 day deliverables where you can get really, really very crunchy about those deliverables. What are you going to do? When are you going to do it by who's responsible that we found?

 

00:35:32:19 - 00:35:51:09

Mark Osborn Chair

That's a really good way to look for and operationalise strategy and measure progress against it. So and I think that's where a lot of boards do struggle. And the other thing I think is we're very lucky because we have, a cheat code in Sandy who sits on that board and she, she sits there with a with an impact hat on.

 

00:35:51:11 - 00:36:15:06

Mark Osborn Chair

So for us, we've really cheated. If I was sitting on another board, I'd really probably consider trying to ask one of the directors to become almost a subject matter expert in impact and measuring impact, and bring that knowledge back to the board so that that can then get, incorporated in all of the processes as it is in, in our organisation.

 

00:36:15:08 - 00:36:37:15

Mark Osborn Chair

And that learning that learning orientation from the directors, I think is a really key thing, the humility to recognise that, that maybe there's some learning to be done there and there's a lot of resources out there to help. So I think that's really the key of it. And then you can set your KPIs to deliver against, those beneficiary centric outcomes that, that you're trying to achieve.

 

00:36:37:18 - 00:37:03:20

Phil Butler

Love it. And I'm mindful, with that, I also that we've got an impact measurement resource that Sandy did assist with a couple of years ago. And we've got an upcoming webinar as well. So, we will keep, focusing on the importance of this, question. What's up with you, Zoe? Ten years from now? So you've had ten years in the on the journey.

 

00:37:03:22 - 00:37:09:24

Phil Butler

Do you get a sense of where you organisation and or where you'll be in ten years?

 

00:37:09:24 - 00:37:37:11

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Yeah, well, that sabbatical was a really good opportunity to reflect on that. A lot of founders do use the ten years is, an opportunity to kind of go, okay, what's my next, journey? And I really, felt that in taking that time to reflect, there is a lot ahead for Happy Paws. Happy hearts. We've talked about a little a little bit about it in terms of that scalability, but also the challenge that you mentioned around the NDIS.

 

00:37:37:13 - 00:38:15:12

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

So there's you know, taking our model into new locations across the country, and we've got a big hairy audacious goal to support 10,000 people by 2032. So that's, you know, really important driver of how we kind of make, decisions as to where we go next. And, you know, there's a there's a diversity element as well. The NDIS, for all of its challenges has actually created, an opportunity for many people to have choice and control about the journey they take and for as long as it needs to take for them.

 

00:38:15:14 - 00:38:33:09

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

I don't know why we came up with ten week, 12 week programs being the solver of all of our challenges. That's not been my experience for some people. That could take six years before we, you know, find that that courageous hot moment for them, that then transition some back to school university or or other pathways.

 

00:38:33:11 - 00:38:55:18

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And so that, that, that has been that beauty in the NDIS around that choice and control. And so we've got an advocacy journey ahead of us to try to support our other cohorts. You know, we also work with, you know, veterans. We also work with first responders. We're working with, you know, women, much like myself, who have fled domestic violence situations.

 

00:38:55:20 - 00:39:16:19

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

And so to give them the the appropriate, you know, what we call a gateway journey is really important. But from a, you know, commercial mind perspective, it also provides that diversification. If we can start to think a little bit differently about this is not a linear journey for people who have experienced, you know, the kinds of challenges that they are working through.

 

00:39:16:21 - 00:39:20:23

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

That's that's going to occupy the next ten years pretty well, I would say. I feel.

 

00:39:21:00 - 00:39:30:07

Phil Butler

Absolutely. And, Mark, where do you think, the ten year horizon has you, but also in terms of the board and its succession planning?

 

00:39:30:09 - 00:39:55:03

Mark Osborn Chair

Yeah. We we've got things to learn as a board. And I think it's really important to recognise that. So we're we're having discussions around board diversity. We're talking about sort of having a rotating observer ship where we bring a participant into our board meetings. The challenge with that is not to make it too tokenistic and to find a way to make that that work for them as well.

 

00:39:55:05 - 00:40:15:24

Mark Osborn Chair

So we're looking at bringing, fresh talent onto the board over time. We need to work on a succession plan for me. I've been in the role for nine years now. That's an important consideration. And growing our capacity as Zoe grows the organisation. I mean, it's essential that we keep pace and, we maintain that, that momentum.

 

00:40:16:01 - 00:40:17:05

Mark Osborn Chair

 

 

00:40:17:07 - 00:40:36:17

Phil Butler

Wonderful chatting with you both today. Fascinating to hear both your personal story, but also the story of the organisation. What an important role it plays. So thank you so much for your time and we look forward to continuing the discussions.

 

00:40:36:19 - 00:40:39:13

Mark Osborn Chair

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

 

00:40:39:15 - 00:40:49:04

Phil Butler

And now we'll go to what else did we not yet cover in this morning session that we should have done.

 

00:40:49:06 - 00:40:52:24

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

I think it's for with us.

 

00:40:53:01 - 00:40:55:15

Phil Butler

Right from my.

 

00:40:55:17 - 00:40:56:17

Mark Osborn Chair

Look.

 

00:40:56:19 - 00:41:01:11

Phil Butler

It really well I mean this is something you guys think of. You want to do that.

 

00:41:01:13 - 00:41:04:23

Mark Osborn Chair

Sounds pretty cool.

 

00:41:05:00 - 00:41:07:15

Mark Osborn Chair

Tick tick tick. Sounds good.

 

00:41:07:17 - 00:41:14:23

Phil Butler

Good. Thank you. Lovely. Well, first, if it's. Yeah. Exciting.

 

00:41:15:00 - 00:41:16:16

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

I thought I did feel like this.

 

00:41:16:18 - 00:41:21:24

Mark Osborn Chair

We feel blessed to be chosen. Yeah.

 

00:41:22:01 - 00:41:25:21

Mark Osborn Chair

So there nothing you need to rerecord or anything?

 

00:41:25:23 - 00:41:27:08

Phil Butler

I don't think so.

 

00:41:27:10 - 00:41:28:07

Zoe Black Founder & CEO

Thanks.

 

00:41:28:09 - 00:41:32:16

Mark Osborn Chair

That's good. We've been well coached and well timed.

 

00:41:32:18 - 00:41:36:00

Phil Butler

You weren't getting too many evil glances from down on the floor.

 

00:41:36:02 - 00:41:37:15

Mark Osborn Chair

The one question I didn't answer.