Boardroom Confidential with Alastair McEwan

BENNETT MASON

Hello and welcome to Boardroom Conversations, a podcast from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. I'm Bennett Mason and thanks very much for joining us. In each episode will have candid conversations with some of Australia's top directors, leaders and experts, delving into their background and discussing many of the key issues that boards are grappling with. Our guest this time is Alistair McEwin. He's currently a professor of practice in disability at UNSW and a senior fellow with the Grattan Institute. Alistair was previously Australia's Disability Discrimination Commissioner and one of the commissioners for the Disability Royal Commission. He's also had a number of board positions, including president of the Deaf Society of New South Wales and the chair of the Disability Council of New South Wales. Alistair, thanks very much for joining us.

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

Thank you very much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

BENNETT MASON

Let's start by talking about your career. You studied law at university. You were an associate to a federal court judge and also a management consultant with Accenture. You then became the manager of the Australian Centre for Disability Law. Why did you want that role? And why was it important to work at an organisation for people with disabilities?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

When I reflect on my time back then, Bennett, I remember thinking I wanted to give back more strongly to the disability community. Prior to that, I'd done a number of volunteer role or was doing a number of volunteer roles in the deaf community and in the wider disability community. So, I'd finished the Accenture, where I had a wonderful grounding in management consulting, information technology, and a lot of the issues around how to manage people. So, I thought I was ready for a management role. So, I took on that role, because of my ambition to give back to the community through leadership and/or a management role. I also remember reflecting at the time that I had a law degree, and I understood how the law worked and the Australian Centre for Disability Law provided advice and information to people who are disabled and experiencing discrimination. So, it was important for me to know that there were many people out there who didn't know the law, who would need help and support to understand the law, and to use the law to hopefully address the discrimination that they were experiencing. So, I saw this as a great combination of using my law degree, even though I was not a practicing lawyer, drawing on my experience with Accenture, the management consulting firm, and also drawing on my past in volunteer roles in the disability community. It was a wonderful experience.

BENNETT MASON

You said it was important for you to give back to the disability community. Why was that so important to you?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

When I look back on my childhood and young adulthood, I was very lucky. I was given lots of opportunities. My parents were very determined to give me the best start in life through education. My father and mother were living on a sheep farm in the southeast of South Australia when they discovered I was deaf at the age of 18 to 24 months. We were living far away from the educational opportunity that Adelaide had. I moved to Adelaide and they sent me to a mainstream private school where there was support for deaf kids throughout the school. Importantly, I was hanging out with non-disabled kid, kids who weren’t deaf. So, I was learning to stand on my own two feet, so to speak. Having said that, when I look back, it was an extremely rich and loving childhood, and I was given opportunities all the way through school and into university. So, I know that that's not the case for many. So, I wanted to look for roles where I could change the bigger picture. Where I knew the bigger picture was failing disabled people. And so therefore, working with the Australian Centre for Disability Law was the perfect way to give back.

BENNETT MASON

You later spent several years as the Disability Discrimination Commissioner. What was so rewarding about that position and what are you most proud of achieving in the role?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

Bennett, there were many, many things about that role that was boarding. Firstly, it was a privilege and an honour and a bit of a surprise to be appointed to the role. I remember thinking at the time, perhaps I’m too young. And that's something I also learnt. The imposter syndrome is quite big when it comes to being appointed to such an important role at a relatively young age. And that's something that I've worked through. I was appointed for a reason. I was clearly able to do the role. I was clearly appointed by those who saw value and credibility in my appointment. So, it was rewarding to know that I was there for a reason, and I wanted to make sure that I discharged my duty as I better could, knowing that I had huge expectations in the disability community. I knew that change would be long and hard. I knew that if every day I could make a small impact or a small difference to either one person's life or the many lives of those in the disability community, I knew I was doing something right. When I think about what did I achieve in the time there? I was there for three years. And for me, when I look back, I reflect mostly on the importance of keeping the spotlight on the most important issues for the disability community. And one issue was the issue of violence against disabled people. Two years into my role, I produced a report called A Future Without Violence, which looked at the way that we respond to when something happened to a disabled person through violence. Six months later, or 8 to 10 months later, we saw the formation of the Disability Royal Commission and the full title is the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability. So that's a great example of keeping a spotlight on the issue.

BENNETT MASON

You were, of course, one of the commissioners for that Royal Commission, and we'll talk about that later in the conversation. But I wanted to shift to your board career now. We mentioned some of the board positions you've had, but what was your first board role and why did you want to be a director?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

Bennett, my first board role was with the former Royal South Australian Deaf Society in South Australia when I spent my childhood and young adulthood. I was a new graduate in law, so a couple of years out of law school. I'd been living overseas for a few years, and I’d come back to Adelaide looking for my new career opportunity, and at the same time I was approached to join the Deaf Society or the Royal South Australian Deaf Society board. And at the time, there were very few deaf professionals. That's not the case now. It's great to see the increased number. And also, there were very, very few deaf people in Australia at the time with a law degree. So, I knew that I had something specific to offer. And of course, I was a member of the South Australian deaf community. I was a relatively new member because I'd grown up in what we call a mainstream setting, where my parents wanted me to be part of the hearing world, and I was finding more and more that I had a deaf identity. So, learning sign language, becoming part of the deaf community. So being appointed to that role, I saw as another great opportunity to combine the fact that I had a law degree that many people didn't have, wanting to give back to the community, and also to start learning what it's like to be a board director. I think ultimately, I knew long term there would be more and more board roles. And so, at the relatively young age of 26, I think it was 27, I became a board member.

BENNETT MASON

26, 27, is very young to be a director at any organisation. What advice do you have for other people who are just beginning their own board careers? And how can they be an effective director in those first few board meetings?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

When I look back, I know I made mistakes. I know I was young and perhaps naive in some way, and I was in a hurry to change the world. And I remember thinking and feeling frustrated at the rate of change or the pace of change when I thought things needed to happen more quickly because I saw the problem that the deaf community were experiencing, and I wanted to change that through my role. What I would say to people who are now beginning their career as the board director is remember, you are there for a purpose. Clearly a colleague or colleagues saw value in your appointment or the shareholders saw value in your appointment. So, stay true to your purpose. That said, take your time. Take the time to learn about how the board works. Sit back for your first meeting to just listen, observe what’s being said, what's been done, the culture. How does the CEO interact with the board? How does the chair chair the meeting and so forth? And if you can, seek a one-on-one meeting with the chair before you commence your board appointment or as soon as you can in the early days or months of your role. So for me, I think it's really important when I reflect on my own journey, I wish I'd taken more time to just sit back and appreciate that eventually your true purpose will come to the fore when  you know why you're there and you can work more effectively with other board members.

BENNETT MASON

You're now a very experienced board member. You've had a number of roles. You've been doing this for quite a long time. You're not 26 or 27 anymore. What have you learned about being a director over that time? And how do you think you've grown as a board member and as a leader?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

I know I've learnt a lot over those years. And I think importantly, I've learnt that a board is like a team. So, from my management experience, when you support team or as the team leader or the manager or as a CEO, a board is also a team. You've got to be able to draw effectively on the strengths of individual board members. You've got to take the time to build the board as a team so that they can perform at a high rate. For me, also doing professional development is also important. So, two years ago, in March 2023, I did the Company Directors Course. And again, part of my professional development has been a recognition that there's always going to be lifelong learning. Prior to that, I did a Masters of Business Administration, and I've also done various leadership courses over the years, including last year, the McKinsey and Co leadership program. So, for me, I think it's important to not only keep looking at your own board career but also taking time to step out and do some professional development opportunity. I also think I've learned that the relationship between the board and the CEO is really important. And I've learned that you do have to at times, or most of the time, separate governance and management. Of course, the CEO is important to being a conduit. There may be at times a little bit of overlap between those two roles, but essentially you have to trust and respect the CEO to do the management side of things. Having said that, it is also important to learn how to challenge the CEO through probing questions. Reading your papers, identifying if there are gaps in your knowledge. Seeking expertise from individual board members if necessary. Working with the chair, particularly if there is a big issue around organisational change, such as a restructure, or if there are funding threats or if there are threats to the organisation in terms of reputation. So, for me, a learning that I've had there is that a board is like working as a team in the workplace. We can draw on each other's strengths, but also, we can draw on each other collectively.

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned working with the chief executive. You've been on both sides of that relationship. You've been an executive; you've been a board member and a chair. You've also had statutory roles like when you were a Disability Discrimination Commissioner. How have you balanced all of those positions at the same time?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

Pretty well, I think, because I saw opportunity to learn from both settings, from my management role as well as being on board. So, I saw a crossover learning things in the workplace that I could apply strategically as a board member, and also from a board position, Knowing that there are things in terms of strategy and strategy implementation that might be useful in the work I do. When I became a Commissioner, I stepped down from all my board because I felt it was important to be independent as possible. And I think for me, that meant that I could have a really blank slate When I began as Disability Discrimination Commissioner, even though I was still drawing on the knowledge and experience I had in my previous role. I thought it was important to be as independent and not a part of any other organisation. That was a bit difficult for me to do at the time, because I really enjoyed the mixture of board roles and leadership and management roles. Having said that, I wanted to be true to myself and also practice what I preach, try and be as independent as possible in that statutory role. And then, of course, when I became a commissioner with the Disability Royal Commission, it was equally as important to be independent as possible. Since I’ve stopped being a commissioner, I've slowly but surely taken up and a few board and advisory committee roles.

BENNETT MASON

You've been the chair or president at several organisations. Different people interpret that role in different ways. What's your answer? How do you interpret the chair role, and what do you think makes a chair or president effective?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

When I became president or chair, I knew that it was very important to do a number of things, get to know the board member. So, I arrange one-on-one meetings with each board member. For example, with the Deaf Society, I thought it was important to get to know them not only as people, but also why would they be on the board? What was their motivation? What expertise and experience did they bring? So, I found that a very valuable lesson in connecting one and one. I also found that those people really appreciated being asked to meet one on one, appreciated me asking what they want to see done better from the board perspective. So, I remember at the time thinking this is time consuming, but also ultimately it will pay off dividends. And I did notice that after having those one-on-one meetings, board members were much more receptive to my chairing of the meeting. There was still difficult conversation to have. Having said that, because I'd made that personal connection with the individuals around the boardroom, I was able to really bring out almost the humanity of the decisions that we were trying to make. I've also been chair of, for example, as you know, the Disability Advisory Council of New South Wales. That was an important role because it provides advice to the Minister for Disabilities in New South Wales. The Council is made up of people from a wide range of backgrounds, both from the disabilities themselves or not having a disability, but perhaps a family member who had a disability. So, a wide range of expertise, experience and motivation as to why they were on the Council. That meant that I had to acknowledge that there were a wide range of views, particularly from people with disabilities, which I did not had much experience or knowledge about. So again, connecting with those people individually was important to me. I also wanted to make sure that they felt that their contributions were important. I always made time in the meeting for everybody, if they wanted to, to have their say. So., I think bringing this to a point of what have I learnt over the years on being a chair or a president, people do look to you for leadership. People do expect you to make decisions ultimately rather than prevaricating or procrastinating, but ultimately, they appreciate being able to connect with the chair or president.

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned the Disability Advisory Council of New South Wales, and it had board members from many different backgrounds, many different experiences. How difficult was it to bring all those people together as one board?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

Bennett, it was very important to make sure I gave people the time to talk about what they wanted to, and that does take time and effort. But ultimately, when people feel that they've not only been heard, but their views have been incorporated into the thinking, what really is important is then try and work out what are the commonalities. And one commonality, of course, is ongoing discrimination or prejudice against disabled people. That's something that’s very common among the disability community. It also important to, we have to say: “Okay, we've talked about this a lot. We do need to make some decisions. Here are some ideas, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think?” So, engage people in the decision-making process, ultimately knowing that at times there might be some difficult decisions to be made, or there may be decisions that not everybody is entirely happy with, but it will be a long-term process.

BENNETT MASON

Let's talk now about representation in the boardroom. We often hear the phrase “nothing about us without us.” That's an important expression. You've had many leadership roles in deaf and disability organisations. Why does representation at the top matter so much?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

It really does matter because we're still not seeing lots of disabled leaders and disabled people in the boardroom. We're not seeing them in parliament. There are a few, only one or two who are openly disabled in the federal parliament, for example, very few in the state and territory governments. We're still seeing a lack of visibility of disabled people in leadership roles. We've had a lot of inquiries. And of course, we've mentioned the Disability Royal Commission. We are still not good at making sure that the boardroom is accessible, that the boardroom is welcoming, but also, we're not putting in the right access and support that disabled people need to be able to perform their duty. I think what also needs to happen is a culture that the organisation itself and of course, the chair and for CEO play a vital role in establishing and implementing the culture of the organisation. So, we have seen time and time again disabled people come into an organisation and they're not able to perform or to progress in their career because the right access is not there. Now, what needs to happen is people need to have a more open mind to doing things differently, putting in place the right support, but also acknowledging that disabled people themselves do have something to offer. And I should also be really clear, even though I've got a lot of experience in disability, I’d also like to think that I've got some pretty good experience in other areas, such as, I’ve had training in board governance, I’ve done lots of leadership courses. So, I'd like to think I also bring other skill and experience to the board table, and I think that's something that often-non-disabled people don't see in disabled people. So, we've got to be really careful not to go down that path of tokenism or “tick a box.” Where: “Yes, we've now got a disabled person on our board, we don't need to do any more.” The challenge is to include them in the decision making, include them in the board discussion in the right way.

BENNETT MASON

Many organisations, many boards, want to be more inclusive towards people with disabilities, but they might not know where to start. So, what are some practical and effective first steps that boards and organisations can take?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

It's a really great question, Bennett. Because often people say: “I'm afraid that I'm not doing the right thing by disabled people.” The first thing is to acknowledge it can be done. There may be some mistakes made along the way. I've made mistakes myself in my journey, in terms of being a board member. There's a range of things. Firstly, mentoring. And the AICD has a great mentoring program in place. So that’s one way where we can bring in more disabled people into those mentoring programs. It's great to see the growing number of disabled people doing AICD courses and I'm very grateful for the AICD doing that in partnership with others. What’s also important is giving disabled people the space to grow and flourish, just like any other board member would. Ask them what they need. Don't assume. Don't be afraid to say: “Look, I've noticed that you might need some more support. How can we provide support?” Most disabled people know how to ask for the right support. There are still many, particularly those who are at the beginning of their board career, who might need some more support. Having said that, ultimately disabled people themselves know what they need, know right access for them to be able to perform their board duties effectively. Other practical things that companies or organisation can do is acknowledge that we have a problem. Talk to disabled people, representative organisations. Learn from the inquiry. And I know we'll talk a bit more about the Disability Royal Commission in a minute. But also, at the end of the day, acknowledge that the number of disabled people in board or in government roles is very small, and that needs to change.

BENNETT MASON

As you said, the number of people with disabilities in board roles is small. They're underrepresented. They're also underrepresented in executive positions and in a number of sectors. Where does the blockage occur and how can it be addressed?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

One thing that we've been talking a lot about in the disability community recently is also acknowledging that there are invisible disabilities. Somebody might come into in or be on a webinar and they might appear to have a disability. So, it's important to acknowledge a number of things, that there are disabled people who do not look obviously disabled. But also, they may not want to disclose that they have a disability because of fear of prejudice or discrimination. And it does happen. It happens daily when someone discloses for example that they might have a mental health or a psychosocial disability, or that they are neurodivergent, they have experienced combination. So naturally they don't want to disclose until they feel that they are in an environment that will be safe, that will support them, and that will know how to provide the right support for them to be an effective board member. And that’s one thing for people to think about. The other thing to think about, how do you build a culture of inclusion itself? And that can only happen when you've got disabled people in the room. So, as you said: “nothing about us, without us.” Having disabled people in the room, part of the decision making it is really important. And that's why I've seen it work. When a CEO or a board chair says: “Look, I know have a problem, how can we make it work?” And I just want to reflect very briefly, Bennett, if I can. my interview with the federal court judge, who I ultimately became the associate to, one of the things he asked me in the interview was, he said: “I know that your deaf, you have a hearing impairment. How can we make it work in the courtroom?” And that was a very refreshing approach when previously, in other interviews with other judges, there had been the attitude of: “This can’t be done because you’re deaf. I can’t see any way that it will work.” Whereas this judge, John von Doussa, said: “How can we make it work?” And he himself, in the interview, started to come up with some solutions, such as a flashing light so that if I needed to speak to him, he could push the button on his desk, and I would see a flash on the associate desk below.

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

All these things, it might seem simple now, but when you look back in the mid-1990s, a culture of inclusion was still decades away. So, that’s a really important thing to consider.

BENNETT MASON

Let's talk now about the Royal Commission. As we said, you were one of the commissioners for the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability. The final report was released in 2023. Not all of our listeners will have read the full report. So, what were some of the Commission's key findings and recommendations for boards?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

The overarching theme and the overarching finding was Australia is failing disabled people in mainstream settings. Mainstream settings are just not accessible, they’re not welcoming and they’re not allowing disabled people to be part of those settings - education, employment, health. It’s a very long list. So, we came up with a set of recommendations to say to mainstream settings, you need to improve, you need to be more accessible and inclusive of disabled people. And that was the overarching finding that the Royal Commission made. I will touch briefly touch upon something where not all commissioners could agree on. Commissioners could not agree on the fact that for as long as you maintain what we call, or what I call, “segregated settings” such as where you have disabled kid in special schools or in sheltered workshops or in home group. For as long as you maintain those settings and make no attempt to dismantle them over time and then ultimately eliminate them, you will have no incentive to improve mainstream settings. So that was where the commissioners could not agree. And so, a couple of us, or a number of commissioners, myself included, had a very strong vision that a more inclusive Australia meant no more segregated settings. some of the recommendations that would be relevant to board members, particularly for those that run disability service providers. And one of the key recommendations was how to embed human rights into your service delivery. So, acknowledging that every disabled person has autonomy. We made a lot of recommendations around supported decision making, how to give the best support to a disabled person to make their own decision. Bennett, I had a very interesting exchange with one of the barriers for a service provider in one of our public hearing who said or suggested that people with intellectual disability may not be able to be board directors because it would not comply with the corporations law requirement that you be of sound mind.  And that was a very interesting exchange. And some commissioners made the point in that hearing that there already disabled people, particularly with intellectual disability on boards, they just need to be provided with the right support so it can be done. For example, how many of us have read board material, such as financial material and struggled to really understand the finances? Now I'm one of those. So, I rely on more professional development. I rely on the treasurer. I rely on staff providing that information in an easy to understand. So, there are ways to make materials more accessible, and there are ways to make boardroom process more supportive, to include disabled people, including people with intellectual disabilities. So that was one set of recommendations. And just a few others were around having a Disability Rights Act. And that’s a way of putting into domestic law the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. And Australia hadn't done that yet. Yes, Australia has signed up to the Convention. So, it has said we are committed to making it more inclusive for disabled people. We haven't quite gotten there yet in terms of making that part of domestic law. So, there were a lot more recommendations that I could talk about. That said, they’re the key ones that I would like my colleague watching this podcast to consider. How do you make your own organisation, both your board and the organisation itself more inclusive through embedding a human rights culture?

BENNETT MASON

You've worked in the disability sector for a long time and of course you have lived experience as well. But were there findings from the Royal Commission or was there evidence in the Commission that you personally found surprising or confronting?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

That's a really great question, and that's one that I know I'll be considering for the rest of my life. It was a privilege to be a commissioner on that Royal Commission. In particular, the hundreds of private sessions that I did. And private sessions were an opportunity for an individual or a group, maybe a family member and the disabled person, to share their experiences with a commissioner, as the name implied implies, in private but also in an entirely confidential setting. And even though I'd worked in disability for many years and heard many, many shocking stories. I was very much much aware of the depth of the problems and issues, I still found some of those sessions, and including what I heard in some of the public hearings, really confronting. And I think it was just a reminder of how far we still have to go, particularly in treating disabled people as second class citizen or non-human. And so, I think I want to acknowledge that because people were brave and courageous and forthright in coming to the Royal Commission, I want to honour their experience and their effort and the fact that they came to a Royal Commission. So that was confronting. And a reminder to me of the work that still needs to be done. What was surprising was the fact that even though all commissioners were given the same information and the same evidence and the same opportunity to reflect on the issue, those without a disability still did not quite see or have a vision of a more inclusive Australia. They always, or they recommended, and people can read it in the report, that they believe that there are still settings where disabled people are better off with their own kind. And for me that was both surprising and confronting, but also a reminder on the need to keep having these conversations with a wide range of people.

BENNETT MASON

With those discussions difficult amongst the commissioners over those differing opinions?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

I think for a whole range of reasons, including the dynamics that were at play at commissioner level, ultimately, three of us decided to write our own section in, for example, inclusive education. As I said earlier, I believe that for as long as we maintain special schools, there'll be no incentive to really reform and transform the mainstream educational setting. So ultimately, we realised that there was no point in having endless discussions internally amongst ourselves.  Ultimately, we were appointed to produce the best report we could. And that meant, of course, splitting into different sections. So, I think that was one way of acknowledging that disabled people had told us again and again, the problem is we want to be part of mainstream. We don't want to be in special schools. We don't want to be in sheltered workshop. So, that was a solution. And also, I had recognised, I was appointed to be an independent commissioner and could not be told by another commissioner what to say or do, or ultimately what to put in the final report. That was the reason for why we split. And I think when I reflect on how that happened, it would have been wonderful to have had a final report that was unanimous in every single section. However, due to the dynamics that were at play, that was not the case. And, disappointing, absolutely. But to me, a reminder of what still needs to happen. I guess in one way, Bennett. You could describe the six commissioners as a microcosm of the wider society. There always going to be different views. And the most important thing is to keep having those conversations to get to, ultimately, I would hope, common ground.

BENNETT MASON

I'll ask you one more question on the Commission. It's now almost two years since the final report was released with its, I believe, 222 recommendations. How would you rate the response to that report and the recommendations by government, business and the community since then?

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

I would rate the government response as lukewarm overall. I acknowledge that a lot of effort went into preparing the response, and I acknowledge that there are a lot of different stakeholders within government that have to contribute to the response. And that said, and I should also be clear, there were 222 recommendations. I did not support all of them. I supported about 198 or so because, like I said earlier, there were differences of opinion among the commissioners. I called and I would love to see the government be more proactive and acknowledging the underlying drivers. And that's what I sought to do with two of my colleagues in the commission, to acknowledge that for as long as you separate disabled people away, because you feel that they're not able to be part of community, you will not have people in the community who are able to support them better, to understand them better, to also learn how to support them better. So that was very important. And I would like to see the government acknowledge more strongly the underlying drivers as to why we had people with disability experiencing violence, abuse, neglect and exploitation. From a business perspective, it's great to see some more awareness of the need to reform system. We are seeing some “green shoots” I suppose you could call them amongst the business sector. They're getting better at embracing disability as part of the need for a diverse workforce. The community itself, the Disability Royal Commission got some media during the time of the Royal Commission. We haven't seemed to have had much media since other than a lot of attention on the National Disability Insurance Scheme, the NDIS. And I think what needs to happen is, the NDIS, it’s a very important scheme and has to absolutely be sustainable. We really do need to focus more on mainstream. How can employers become better at including disabled people? How can mainstream schools get better at having disabled kids in the classroom with their non-disabled peers? So absolutely for me, mainstream settings. So, I hope that the government continues to recognise that mainstreaming is such an important issue because that’s where most of us are.

BENNETT MASON

Alastair, that's been great. Thanks very much for joining us here on the podcast.

ALASTAIR MCEWIN

Thank you very much, Bennett. It's been a great pleasure.