Founder-Led to Future-Ready

00:00:01:15 - 00:00:29:09 

Phil 

Welcome to Boards with Purpose. I'm Phil Butler from the Australian Institute of Company Directors, and chatting today with Hannah and David about this area of founders and the role of founder led organisations in the not for profit sector. Thanks heaps for being involved. What I might do is to get us kicked off. Hannah, tell us a little bit about your story and then David, you do the same. 

  

00:00:29:10 - 00:00:56:05 

Hannah 

Yeah, absolutely. So I started the organisation that I ran around about Canberra just over eight years ago. Basically, I was a mum living in Canberra. I spent most of my life in Canberra, and I really cared about the community that I was living in. I did lots of volunteering. And by the time I was on maternity leave with my second child, I liked to be able to give my second hand baby and kids items away for free to people in our community who needed them. 

  

00:00:56:05 - 00:01:13:24 

Hannah 

So I often used to give things away on Facebook or Facebook Marketplace or Gum Tree, but I wanted to know that those items were going directly to the people who really needed them. So through a Google search, I stumbled across an organisation in Victoria that does what we now do, and I thought something like that could work here. 

  

00:01:14:00 - 00:01:20:01 

Hannah 

Basically, an organisation that collects donations from the community and passes them on to families that need them. 

  

00:01:20:01 - 00:01:28:18 

Phil 

So what? What a great cause. And you're still doing similar but an expanded scale. 

  

00:01:28:19 - 00:01:33:11 

Hannah 

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So sorry. Wonderful. 

  

00:01:33:13 - 00:01:35:04 

Phil 

That's that's all good. 

  

00:01:35:06 - 00:01:49:23 

Hannah 

That's right. So the organisation has grown from, you know, one that helps 350 kids a year at years ago to now helping almost 6000 children a year. So it's grown from a very hokey little grassroots organisation to something much larger and more professional. 

  

00:01:50:02 - 00:02:00:19 

Phil 

Great success story. And no doubt there's been no challenges on that as we've as you've gone through. But we'll we'll touch on those a little bit later. David, tell us a bit about your story. 

  

00:02:00:24 - 00:02:30:15 

David 

Yeah. Thanks, Phil. Myself and co-founder Ben were both members of the first men's table. We created it just as a group of 12 guys, and we'd been doing that for seven, seven and a half years and had been quite intentional. All of us, the 12 guys in how we were making that work for us. It's a it's a men's peer group, an opportunity to have an open hearted conversation once a month over a meal about the highs and lows of lives and how we're actually feeling. 

  

00:02:30:18 - 00:02:50:00 

David 

A lot of guys don't have that opportunity, you know, there's a lot of banter. And so we saw the opportunity to go beyond banter and have that real conversation. So we've been getting all of us at different times. All 12 men had been had spoken at different times on different nights about how important and valuable the table had been to us. 

  

00:02:50:01 - 00:03:10:16 

David 

So then I was tapped on the shoulder by female friend who was doing women's groups, and she sort of said, what are you doing about men's work? And so I spoke with Ben and we said, why don't we see if other men want to do what we've been doing? And so we actually spoke to our all the guys at the next table meeting the next month and said, hey, we'd like to do this. 

  

00:03:10:17 - 00:03:34:23 

David 

What have we learned from all this time about making a healthy, functioning, long lasting men's table? We wrote those things down. They became our guidelines, the fundamentals. And then Ben and I launched into the world and started to see if other men wanted to do that, and they did. So we've also grown from that one table in 2019 to over 300 tables now, over 3000 men and national. 

  

00:03:34:24 - 00:03:35:11 

David 

Yeah. 

  

00:03:35:12 - 00:04:05:10 

Phil 

Wow. What a what a great story and both so badly needed within our various communities for all sorts of different reasons. Founder led organisations though have great passion, great opportunities, but I think some specific challenges with them as well. Tell us a little bit about the challenges that maybe you face. David, do you want to kick off on on that one? 

  

00:04:05:11 - 00:04:27:11 

David 

Yeah, sure. So yeah. Founder versus co-founder. So I suppose we've got the two stories here. Yep. I suppose the strength of the co-founding was we had somebody else to do it alongside. Whereas Hannah you had to go it alone right from the start. We, we had a third director right from the beginning. We needed three directors to form a company limited by guarantee. 

  

00:04:27:12 - 00:04:48:06 

David 

The two of us co-founders were also on the board, essentially as co-executive directors for the first number of years. So one of the one of the challenges, I think, can maybe we get to this a bit further as well, is that the executive were really leading the organisation, and at what point in the maturity does the board start. 

  

00:04:48:09 - 00:04:49:10 

Phil 

That flip. 

  

00:04:49:12 - 00:05:13:06 

David 

Lead the organisation? And I think in our terms we're still in a transition, you know, really developing the board and the board's strength and the the ownership of the organisation. Because when there's a founder or co-founder still working in the organisation, I think it's quite tricky for a board to go, well, we're telling you now we're leading this place and you're the chief executive. 

  

00:05:13:07 - 00:05:24:07 

David 

So I think that's probably one inflection point. It hasn't been a block to our growth, I don't think. But nevertheless it's quite a nuanced dynamic in terms of proper governance. 

  

00:05:24:11 - 00:05:35:22 

Phil 

Indeed. And in terms of your relationship with your board, did you notice that changing over the first few years, and particularly as you went through that growth? 

  

00:05:35:23 - 00:05:54:00 

Hannah 

Absolutely. So our board started off initially, so I was on the board prior to taking on the paid CEO role. So I was I was one of them. But initially our board were the doers. So it was a group of people who came together to get the organisation started. So they were the ones who were scrubbing prams and folding clothes and things like that. 

  

00:05:54:00 - 00:06:24:07 

Hannah 

So very operational. And over time, as people have left organically and as I've stepped into the paid CEO role, we've been able to turn that board into what it should be a proper strategic governance board. But but with that change, there's been that sort of shift from the organisation looking to me for all of its direction and the board looking to me for its direction to now, you know, the board playing that role that it should be playing and driving the strategic direction of the organisation with me engaging with them, of course. 

  

00:06:24:07 - 00:06:28:08 

Hannah 

But but I've definitely seen that shift and I think it's been a really good one. 

  

00:06:28:08 - 00:06:42:01 

Phil 

And do you think the purpose of the organisation has changed in that various periods of transition, or is the purpose still reasonably much the same? 

  

00:06:42:02 - 00:06:58:21 

Hannah 

We've been really clear on our purpose from the start. So that hasn't changed. Yeah, the purpose has not changed at all. We've been very clear with that. But I think just the way in which we go about delivering the work and the structure of our organisation and the governance assets behind it has become much more sophisticated over time. 

  

00:06:58:24 - 00:07:17:23 

Phil 

Yeah. As the founder and David, you as a co-founder, maybe you could just explain where you think that difference is because did you always have kind of the same purpose with your co-founder? 

  

00:07:18:00 - 00:07:42:03 

David 

Yeah, there was alignment there, strong alignment. Our purpose has evolved from a more simplistic to a more expansive purpose, I think, in the way we articulate it. And I think what we have discovered is possible with this work. So when we started, we just had the simple idea of supporting men. And what we then saw was actually its men supporting men. 

  

00:07:42:04 - 00:08:12:20 

David 

The organisation is really just setting up the environment for men to support men. So that was the next iteration. Now we're in a much more expansive phase again, where we see the potential of men of care in connection as a universal male behaviour. So it's become a much broader horizon that we're scanning and looking to, to feed into and to realise so that that evolution of the purpose, I think, has been both natural because we've seen the benefits of the work and how substantial they are. 

  

00:08:13:00 - 00:08:40:08 

David 

But I think it has taken real effort to dig deeper to find what what is the what is the deeper purpose of this work? It doesn't answer your question directly about the the the co-founder dynamic. I think for most of the time that Ben and I worked together, we were pretty aligned about purpose. I don't think there was ever and I think that was a real strength of the co-founder relationship. 

  

00:08:40:09 - 00:08:41:00 

David 

Yeah, yeah. 

  

00:08:41:02 - 00:09:03:17 

Phil 

Makes sense in terms of the passion that you both bring to your organisations and balancing that with the discipline you need of well governed organisations. How was how have you managed to balance that. And I'm happy for either of you to jump in there. 

  

00:09:03:19 - 00:09:24:10 

Hannah 

I think the benefit of starting an organisation from scratch is that you can sort of get in there and get things done in a way that may mean that the governance that you have in place isn't as perfect as it should be. But I think, you know, founding an organisation, you often you're just muddling your way through things. 

  

00:09:24:10 - 00:09:44:23 

Hannah 

There's so much passion and drive. And so it's all go, go, go, and you just work out how to do things as you go. And there is sort of this point where that has to, to shift. But I think, yeah, I see that as a real positive in terms of those early days and, you know, just getting things set up and going, yeah, yeah. 

  

00:09:45:00 - 00:10:09:23 

David 

What comes to mind is sort of the development journey of somebody who's there from the start when it's small and what's the, I suppose, the development requirements for the role, if you're not growing with the organisation, the place is going to outgrow you. And I've seen that I used to consult to organisations before I started this. One example for me is not much of a risk manager. 

  

00:10:10:00 - 00:10:34:10 

David 

I and I tell my board I'm more of a risk taker. And so that's easy when you're small because you just having a swing, giving everything a crack and not so fast about the risk as the organisation has grown. Of course, the risks become more substantial. So I've had to learn more about risk management. Having said that, it's never going to be my strength because I'm just not wired that way as much. 

  

00:10:34:11 - 00:11:02:06 

David 

So then how do we build and bring the right capabilities in? So we're, for example, have a really strong risk and audit committee with risk professionals and people who are just wired to look at risk in the right way. So I think complementing my own development journey as a CEO to try and grow with the organisation, whilst also recognising the limits of of my strengths and weaknesses and realising there's going to need to be complementary strengths being brought into the organisation as well. 

  

00:11:02:09 - 00:11:25:13 

Phil 

And, and it's fascinating right to think about risk and at the outset of an organisation, you probably wouldn't have done the things that you managed to do to make it a success if you had all of those oversights happening. It's a bit like entrepreneurs, right? They kick off with an idea and let's and let's run with it for a while. 

  

00:11:25:14 - 00:11:46:12 

Phil 

Then as you grow, I guess you need to bring in those those skills. And did you find it hard when the board started to, I guess, act a bit more like a board of a non-executive directors do, and that you're reporting to them on your on your little baby, if you like. 

  

00:11:46:16 - 00:12:20:11 

Hannah 

Initially, yes. And it's something that I had to sort of work through myself and catch myself occasionally, but I think I'm someone who really does like learning from other people and, you know, try and connect with people who have those skills or the information that, that I don't have. So, yeah, so initially it was a bit of a shift, but I found that over time we've been in a very similar situation where we've brought people onto our board who have very strong governance skills, very strong risk skills and appreciation for risk. 

  

00:12:20:13 - 00:12:31:06 

Hannah 

And it's just helped to sort of tidy up all of those things that are so important that I didn't stop to, to put in place in those early days when it was just about getting things done. 

  

00:12:31:07 - 00:12:50:10 

Phil 

But it can be a bit frustrating as well, I guess of things can't happen as quickly as they used to, and there's greater numbers of checks and balances that you need to roll through. I'm assuming there are times when that can feel a little frustrating sometimes. 

  

00:12:50:11 - 00:13:04:22 

Hannah 

I mean, I think we're still a small organisation, so it is relatively easy to keep things moving and get them done. Yeah, it's not something that has bothered me too much, but it is. It's certainly a shift from from those early few years. 

  

00:13:04:24 - 00:13:15:21 

Phil 

Yeah, David getting the right skill sets and that right mix of skills onto your board. How did you go about doing that? 

  

00:13:15:23 - 00:13:31:24 

David 

I think it was touched on before. Hannah, you spoke about just the people who were willing to get in and do the work. They became your board. I think it was a little bit the same, and I suspect is often the case with the beginnings is who do we know? Who are the people around us? Hey, would you like to come on the board? 

  

00:13:32:00 - 00:13:58:00 

David 

What I'm noticing we're actually we've got an extraordinary board meeting this afternoon at of cycle. And one of the topics is the next non-executive director. What's the profile, the capabilities? We've got a skills matrix. We're taking way more time and consideration and thoughtfulness about that next person than we did, say, five years ago when we were just going from 3 to 4 board members, for example. 

  

00:13:58:02 - 00:14:14:12 

David 

So I think as the organisation is maturing, there's a much more considered approach to what is the next set of skills and capabilities and resources that that next board member brings. So that's certainly been a change that's going on in how we compose the board. 

  

00:14:14:14 - 00:14:57:00 

Phil 

Yeah, and I'm delighted to hear that one of our other episodes of boards with purpose, we talked about succession planning and the need for always having strategic succession planning. If not on the agenda, then certainly in people's minds to be considering. Let me then take succession planning to the next phase of succession planning for yourselves. So what's what's the role that you think, Hannah, that you need to take for the longer term in setting the up the organisation so that it can still thrive if you're not there? 

  

00:14:57:02 - 00:15:34:21 

Hannah 

So David and I both recently we met through a leadership program, the Social Impact Leadership Australia program, which is a wonderful program for CEOs of not for profits in Australia, supported by a number of philanthropic funders. And I think for roundabout, I won't speak for David, but for roundabout, that was a really key, a really key thing for us in terms of thinking about succession and setting our organisation up to be successful for many years to come, because a big part of that process is about making sure the organisation has, you know, everything in place that it needs to have the CEO not be there. 

  

00:15:34:21 - 00:15:53:19 

Hannah 

So part of it is about having the CEO takes a three month sabbatical and someone acts in that role. So there's a lot of planning and preparation that goes into that. And that really helped round about to make sure we had all the things in writing that we needed to have in writing to make sure that we had other members of our team involved in things that they should be involved in. 

  

00:15:53:19 - 00:16:07:05 

Hannah 

And for me not to be carrying certain things that perhaps shouldn't really be sitting with my role. So that's been a real shift for us. And, and I think has played a really important role in that sort of succession nicely. 

  

00:16:07:09 - 00:16:08:17 

Phil 

Dover. What did you. 

  

00:16:08:23 - 00:16:37:06 

David 

I my career has I've started a number of things that have been successful, but they haven't been successful in terms of a legacy organisation. When I decided to finish doing that thing, an organisation other not for profits, they ended, you know, sometimes soon after that. So I think I came in with all of that. Well, you know, lived experience of that's kind of not good enough. 

  

00:16:37:08 - 00:17:04:14 

David 

I, I wished I'd, I'd had more wherewithal to have created the infrastructure, the capability, the resources, etc., to allow something to continue. So in this situation, I was clearer that I wanted to to build a succession plan process and have that in the narrative. So about three years ago, I wrote a five year succession plan, and that's been really, really valuable. 

  

00:17:04:14 - 00:17:25:18 

David 

I must admit, some of the time I had no idea. Okay, what does that next horizon on that plan look like? But as an example, when the silo leadership course was offered to me, I thought, this is perfect as the next step in developing that succession planning. So I think it's just good for any organisation, particularly based on my own lived experience. 

  

00:17:25:18 - 00:17:47:04 

David 

But if we have a look at any organisation, if the organisation can last beyond its founders or founder, it's kind of succeeded in that legacy way. You know, there's an opportunity for it to continue to deliver its purpose beyond the people who had the initial vision. So that's what I want for the men's table is for this thing to continue well after I'm gone. 

  

00:17:47:04 - 00:18:08:20 

David 

And so, yeah, there has to be succession planning for the founder, co-founder and therefore building the right structures. I mean, a practical example for us is okay. Yeah. What does it look like to have the CEO in our organisation who's not on the board, whereas you've already done that? Hanna. So I think that's a really important step you've made that we haven't made yet. 

  

00:18:08:23 - 00:18:09:18 

David 

Yeah. 

  

00:18:09:20 - 00:18:29:13 

Hannah 

It's interesting because it wasn't until I undertook the silo program that I actually felt it was possible to step away and to, you know, and I can see that place where roundabout exists without me now. So it's great that you were thinking about that early on. But yeah, it was really that, that that was key for me. 

  

00:18:29:15 - 00:18:52:12 

Phil 

But I'm assuming that will be tough emotionally to leave behind and walk away and say that's now someone else's organisation to run. Have you kind of thought through that, and did the program get into that sort of depth. 

  

00:18:52:13 - 00:19:11:09 

Hannah 

A little bit? And I guess we got a taste for it in terms of taking our three month sabbatical and have some having someone step into the CEO role, I'm sure it will be hard to step away. But, you know, I think a lot about sort of legacy and setting an organisation up to succeed beyond me, and that's something I really want. 

  

00:19:11:10 - 00:19:33:07 

Hannah 

So yeah, I'm sure that will be something that I'll have to work through emotionally, but but I'm excited by that as well. I'm excited at the thought of, you know, me being able to use my skills elsewhere and for someone else to have a go at leading the organisation in their own way. And leaders do that in their own way, and it may be very different the way that I've done it, but that's okay. 

  

00:19:33:09 - 00:19:38:00 

Phil 

And did much change. When you were doing your three month sabbatical. 

  

00:19:38:02 - 00:20:00:00 

David 

There was different learning that I got. I think, as I said, I'd already baked in the idea that I wanted to to have this place outlive me. There was different learning in stepping away from the organisation onto a sabbatical. It was how many things? Am I still holding on to because of resource limited resources or whatever? That means that the CEO role is almost untenable. 

  

00:20:00:00 - 00:20:20:13 

David 

It's just there's too many things that are still being held by the CEO. So that was a very clear realisation. Can I just go back to your other question, though, about the letting go process? Because I think emotionally and practically, that's a really important part of this journey as a founder, co-founder, the metaphor of of that, it's our baby that we started. 

  

00:20:20:13 - 00:20:44:23 

David 

The organisation, I think, as a is an apt metaphor. In fact, we just had our three day team annual team planning, and at some point in there I remember a team member saying, well, this is your and Ben's baby. You know, so it's it's in our mindset, right? As a good parent, you want your child to grow up to be a healthy, functioning adult who's independently living in the world. 

  

00:20:44:23 - 00:21:08:10 

David 

You don't want them to stay at home. So I think it's I think it's a mature and natural part of any growth and evolution is to let something go and let it to to transcend you, to let it go beyond what you have control over, if you like. So for me, yes, there's some emotional attachment to to having started something, but we should be able to let it go. 

  

00:21:08:12 - 00:21:39:04 

Phil 

And to continue that metaphor a little bit further, it takes a village to raise a child. Right? And so if you take your board as being part of that village metaphor, have you noticed that you needed different skill sets and also different styles as this evolved and maybe also just talk a little bit? How did the board cope when you were both on your sabbaticals? 

  

00:21:39:05 - 00:21:47:21 

Phil 

Because I'm kind of curious whether or not they needed to get more into the level of detail that while you were off on your sabbatical. 

  

00:21:47:23 - 00:21:50:01 

Speaker 4 

Do you want to go first? 

  

00:21:50:03 - 00:22:13:02 

David 

The latter question first. I think when I first presented the opportunity of this silo program, which included a three month sabbatical, there was certainly the board had to go, okay, what's the risk to the organisation? Because yeah, I hadn't done, at that point a good enough job at really disentangling myself from so many things, including, for example, you know, bringing in the funding. 

  

00:22:13:03 - 00:22:44:17 

David 

And so there was, I think, an appropriate level of caution once we got a the acting CEO, the sort of the backfill established, I think they then felt confident and comfortable with the, with the, the next steps that were being put in place. And to the credit of the silo course, they really prepare you and your board to think through those preparation stages that are just sort of rip you out of the organisation without having you gone through some of that proper planning as well. 

  

00:22:44:19 - 00:22:45:07 

David 

Yeah. 

  

00:22:45:08 - 00:22:49:14 

Phil 

Be a lot more fun though, if they did. Right. Just a really, really scenario. 

  

00:22:49:14 - 00:22:53:19 

David 

To a reality TV show that would. 

  

00:22:53:21 - 00:23:14:02 

Hannah 

And I think, you know, my board also a little bit apprehensive at the start but saw it as a really good opportunity. And I think even though we we actually haven't spoken a lot about succession planning, I think they saw the opportunity in terms of succession planning and and now can see the benefit. So yeah. At that moment of hesitation. 

  

00:23:14:02 - 00:23:16:16 

Hannah 

But they really did get behind it, which was great. 

  

00:23:16:17 - 00:23:34:21 

Phil 

Yeah. Tell me about the relationship between yourself and the chair of the board. You know, CEOs and chairs do have a special relationship. Tell us a little bit about that and how you're finding that working for for you Hannah. 

  

00:23:34:23 - 00:24:01:02 

Hannah 

So we for seven years we had the one chair. So she founded the organisation alongside me. She was a friend of mine from work and had experience being on boards. And I think, you know, we had a great, quite a friendly relationship for, you know, the entire time. But the organisation grew and evolved and she chose to step off, step off from the chair role. 

  

00:24:01:08 - 00:24:26:15 

Hannah 

And we've had a new chair start in the last 12 months. It was also on our board, but has brought a sort of fresh approach to running the running the board and engaging with the rest of the board members and also connecting with the wider world about the work that we do at roundabout. So both, you know, very different relationships, but sort of aligned really nicely with what we needed from the chair at that time. 

  

00:24:26:16 - 00:24:51:10 

Hannah 

So, yeah, I have a really close relationship with our current board chair. We connect regularly, but I think the board has evolved to a place where they're not operational anymore, whereas they were in those early days and sometimes our board meetings, it could be difficult to sort of shift the talk away from the operational space and lift it to where it needed to be, but, you know, it's where it should be now, which is great. 

  

00:24:51:12 - 00:24:53:15 

Phil 

And, David, in terms of your chair. 

  

00:24:53:16 - 00:25:02:07 

David 

Yeah, look, the CEO and chair role is is a really fundamental relationship isn't it, in any organisation. 

  

00:25:02:09 - 00:25:27:24 

David 

Our chair is also the founding chair. So we haven't gone through that succession. And there's certainly conversation going on with that chair and the board in total about when is the right time for that chair to also step away and allow for the next person to step in. And so, yeah, it's it's a little bit like we said before about, you know, the metaphor of the organisation being like a baby. 

  

00:25:27:24 - 00:25:59:17 

David 

There's an intimacy there. There's a real deep connection because we were both there at the beginning. And our chair really embodies the culture and the spirit of the work we do. Healthy masculinities, along with his leadership of the organisation as well. So there is that is a special bond and it will be really. I'll be fascinated to see when we go through a similar process of succession of the chair as well, how that will, you know, cast a new light into the organisation with different strengths, different style as well. 

  

00:25:59:20 - 00:26:23:07 

David 

I think I was thinking about this just the other day, which in our situation, which would work best, would it be best to replace me as the CEO first with the existing chair, or with a new chair to take on a new CEO? I haven't worked that. I haven't sort of spoken to the board about that either, but I think that sequence is actually important to think through. 

  

00:26:23:08 - 00:26:52:20 

Phil 

Yeah. My word. I was chatting with someone the other day and I was talking about the not for profit sector and the great work that people do and the respect people bring into board roles and governance more generally. And we're talking about how do you make sure that you still have good, robust conversations at a board level, given that most people are volunteering their time? 

  

00:26:52:20 - 00:27:22:19 

Phil 

Right. So how do you make sure, I guess, that you've got those robust conversations and that you've got that right relationship with the board to have them feel comfortable, I guess, about questioning the founder and because your knowledge of the organisation and it will be far more than any non-executive director is going to have, right. How do you make sure that you can have those robust conversations? 

  

00:27:22:20 - 00:27:41:10 

Hannah 

Well, I guess a key part of it is how you receive those, those robust thoughts. So I think that is really a big part of it. I also think the chair role is really crucial in terms of how they facilitate those conversations in the room and allow those conversations to play out. And yeah, I think that's a really crucial thing. 

  

00:27:41:16 - 00:28:02:16 

Hannah 

From our boards perspective, we have a lot of very strong but very respectful personalities. So there doesn't seem to be any concern in our in the room about sort of about people sharing their thoughts. But it's always delivered in a really respectful way. And I'd certainly say that that's been a shift over the past few years with these additions of a number of new board members, but it's really good. 

  

00:28:02:16 - 00:28:26:16 

Hannah 

It means we can have these robust conversations. It's not just me presenting something to the board and them accepting it. It is a conversation. And sometimes we do walk out of the room having landed somewhere that I didn't expect we'd land. So but I think, yeah, it's the chair plays a really key role and I'm careful to to try and receive that information in the right way. 

  

00:28:26:17 - 00:28:55:19 

David 

Yep. What occurs to me is the the board's ability to handle the tough stuff will be most tested when the tough stuff is upon upon the organisation. So we've had a couple of situations where the survival of the organisation has been in jeopardy. And so yeah, the board and me as the co-founder is that we're digging deep, you know, and having to have really, really straight conversations. 

  

00:28:55:19 - 00:29:17:04 

David 

So I like what you said to me because I was thinking as you were talking, that even in the good times, if you're practising the challenge, the opportunity for challenge, then you're you're building that muscle for when there is the tough times and there's more likely to be heat and and divergence of opinion and so on. So I think that's something to really cultivate is yeah. 

  

00:29:17:05 - 00:29:23:11 

David 

How do we cultivate that ability to challenge each other even when, when all the green lights are on? You know that. 

  

00:29:23:12 - 00:29:40:05 

Hannah 

It's interesting. I was just thinking about what you said about sort of when those moments are stressful and you are facing difficult things. I noticed that when I was on The Silas about equal, there were a couple of things that came up through one of our board meetings that I wasn't there for. That did cause some significant concern. 

  

00:29:40:05 - 00:30:01:06 

Hannah 

And I think one of the things that I do quite well is I help to sort of see my things down and bring everyone back down to the ground. And so I think that's a really key role for someone to play in the room to when things do start to get heightened or, you know, blown out of proportion, you need that person to sort of rationalise. 

  

00:30:01:08 - 00:30:36:16 

Phil 

I love the way that both of you have described some of your skills, but also some of your areas you feel less skilled at, right? Or that you have less natural enjoyment out of. And to me, good boards and good executives are able to do that. Right. And to be able to have that conversation of saying, I'm not great at risk or, you know, I get floundering in in certain times, mature, good, mature boards are able to do that, right. 

  

00:30:36:18 - 00:30:46:00 

Phil 

Have there been times when you've left a meeting going, or I still hate that decision. Is that actually happened to you? 

  

00:30:46:02 - 00:31:19:22 

David 

So firstly, what I heard as you did that was just sort of how authentic are people being versus putting on their best face and looking like we've got the answers. So that authenticity, I think, is part of the culture of an effective board. I haven't had the experience of I don't agree with that decision, but that might be still a bit of a weakness and a blind spot with me being CEO, co-founder, and on the board still is that I'm inadvertently still, well, not inadvertently. 

  

00:31:19:22 - 00:31:42:10 

David 

I'm influencing the direction of decisions more than I could. And so if I'm really honest, many of the decisions are still going to be going, you know, in accordance with the kind of ideas I might have. And I think that's part of our maturity. And again, the idea of having a co-founder stepping away from the board and just taking on the CEO role. 

  

00:31:42:12 - 00:32:01:20 

David 

And as you've done, Hannah strikes me as, again, helpful because you're one step removed from influencing the decision and able to maybe be confronted with a situation where the board is taking a decision that you don't necessarily agree with, but you've got to adhere to because that's the decision that's been made. 

  

00:32:01:22 - 00:32:35:05 

Phil 

Fascinating insight and really appreciate you sharing that. In terms of down the track, would you see the purpose of the organisation changing, say, after you've left the organisation and would you be comfortable in that? Is that is that something that you're chatting with the the board about? Because I'm mindful that you're doing a great job, but what I've seen is lots of organisations then get offered to do well. 

  

00:32:35:05 - 00:32:47:08 

Phil 

You're doing that really well. Why don't you do this, this and this? And suddenly the purpose or the mission has kind of crept a little bit broader. You're having those thoughts at all. 

  

00:32:47:09 - 00:33:11:01 

Hannah 

It's something that I think about a lot. And actually, through the last Act government election, the Act Labour Party made a pre-election commitment that would have that involved roundabout, that would have taken us slightly away from our core business of supporting vulnerable families. And it didn't sit completely well with me. And so in the end, we spoke to them and we actually didn't end up taking on that work. 

  

00:33:11:01 - 00:33:37:14 

Hannah 

And that's gone elsewhere. So it's something I think about a lot, and I think there are lots of organisations that make decisions based on where funding is available. And, you know, yeah, we're funding is available. But for us, we're very clear about what we do that focus on providing material essentials to children. It's possible that when I leave, someone may make a decision to take the organisation in a different direction. 

  

00:33:37:14 - 00:33:57:10 

Hannah 

But we're very unique. We're the only organisation that does what we do in our region, and we've filled a pretty significant gap. We're very much relied upon, so I doubt it. But it is possible. But yeah, something we talk about a lot and I think it's I think it's really important to stay focussed on what you're there to do. 

  

00:33:57:13 - 00:34:07:19 

Hannah 

I think it makes it much easier to bring your staff, your board, your volunteers, the community along for the journey. When you're clear about your purpose and you stay true to that. 

  

00:34:07:22 - 00:34:24:03 

Phil 

And it's fascinating. And, David, you mentioned that you had financial challenges. I'm assuming you've had conversations of G. Can we get funding from different sources. And perhaps that broadens the the purpose a little bit. 

  

00:34:24:08 - 00:34:46:16 

David 

Yeah, I think you've nailed it Hannah. The most likely thing that's going to deviate an organisation is chasing after a different funding bucket. And what what obligations come with that? The picture that came into my mind when you were talking. It was a great question about. Yeah. To what extent is there a concern of this thing being morphed into something else? 

  

00:34:46:17 - 00:35:22:16 

David 

We own a lovely Federation home, 120 years old, and some of the homes around us will get bought. And then the bulldozer comes in and just smashes it and build something brand new. And I think, gosh, if we ever sold this, you know, I feel so attached to this home that we've lived in for so long. And all I can think is if I can just make sure that we've done the best we can to present this home with all of its current beauty and what it really represents, then hopefully the next person who takes it on sees that in it and wants to adhere to that and keep it rather than go. 

  

00:35:22:16 - 00:35:44:18 

David 

Now it's just a piece of old dust. Chop it down. I think it's the same with the organisation. If it's if it's a really clear, meaningful purpose. Why would it get smashed down? So yeah, maybe avoiding the risk that you've named Hannah, but also just really continuing to shine a light on the value of the purpose to me is what's going to protect the the drift. 

  

00:35:44:20 - 00:35:56:09 

Phil 

David and Hannah, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Covered a wide range and a big shout out for all that you do in your various communities. Congratulations for what you're doing and thanks for being here today.