The Evolution of For-Purpose Organisations in Australia

00:00:11:22 - 00:00:55:06

Phil 

Welcome to this month's edition of boards with purpose. I'm Phil Butler. NFP sector lead at AI, joined today by Sarah Davies. We're going to talk all things not for profit over I guess Sarah's extensive career and a whole different range of roles across that journey. Sarah, Philanthropy Australia, the Allannah and Madeline Foundation, and ACNC chair. Difficult to pick which one we're going to kick off with, but maybe just tell us a little bit, a bit about your journey in the in the sector.

 

00:00:55:09 - 00:01:31:07

Sarah 

Thank you. Phil, and it's great to be here. I would like to just acknowledge the traditional lands that I'm coming from today, though, I'm on the lands of the people of the cooler nation, and I pay my respects to their elders, past and living. I have worked in the I have. Well, we were all part of community and I have worked in community in one way, shape or form since I was a kind of rap bag activist in my teens, all the way through to my mature years in my final third of life.

  

00:01:31:11 - 00:01:54:18

Sarah 

Is that what they describe it? And kind of everything in the middle. So for me, feel it all meshes into kind of one desire, which is to be part of community, part of where I live, and to create the kind of world and environment that I want to live in. And I want to raise my family and my children to live in, and I want my neighbours to live in.

  

00:01:54:21 - 00:02:22:13

Sarah 

I think that that kind of active community building is the very essence of who we are as a kind of common humanity. So yes, I've had different roles and different labels and worked for different organisations and done different things in that kind of mix of community. But for me, it kind of just coalesces into one big thing, which is just being an active citizen, and being involved in the things that matter to me.

  

00:02:22:21 - 00:02:33:17

Phil 

And do you think as a society, we've had a bit of a decline in that community activism, for want of a better word?

  

00:02:33:19 - 00:02:56:16

Sarah 

Yeah. Look, it's interesting. I mean, yeah, when I mean, when was the Bowling Alone book published? That was what, in the 90s? Yes. You know, there has been if you if you look at it from a kind of a macro evidence global level, there has been a documented decline in the kind of the, the social capillaries that connect people.

  

00:02:56:16 - 00:03:29:24

Sarah 

So, in organised religion, in kind of formal volunteering and in kind of some of the traditional ways that we normally would measure how community connects and builds. But the one thing that hasn't changed is, I think, common humanity. And so if we take it down to a grassroots level, I don't see any decline in how people are thinking and being and behaving in their families, with their neighbours, in the schoolyard, in the sports club, down the street, in the shopping centre.

  

00:03:29:25 - 00:04:16:01

Sarah 

I, I still see us yearning for that connection, participation and belonging and sense of purpose that comes from from being embedded and happy and fulfilled in the places where we kind of live, learn and play. So I think what's happened is the shape of it has absolutely changed over the last few decades, and the shape of it is rapidly changing as we kind of really understand and come to terms with what online communities are and community that is facilitated through digital engagement, which in one way kind of really shrinks the world because we have an opportunity to to engage globally in quite an intimate way, but in another way can also increase a sense of

  

00:04:16:01 - 00:04:31:26

Sarah 

perhaps isolation, because the people we're connecting with are not physically around us. I think it's hugely complicated, but I do not think that the essence of humanity and the essence of who we are and and how we best thrive has fundamentally changed.

  

00:04:32:01 - 00:05:21:27

Phil 

Yeah, because my observation remains that, you know, as a society, we need that, we need that cohesion, right? That grouping of people coming together almost regardless of whatever the, the thing is. But they need to come together as, as something. And I think that remains are critically important. I guess I've also observed in my time being involved in the in the NFP sector has been the increased professionalism of the sector, which I think has been generally a good thing, but also mindful that sometimes that can also lose some of the enthusiasm of those playing in the in the space.

  

00:05:21:27 - 00:05:25:15

Phil 

Right. It's a it's a complicated beast.

  

00:05:25:17 - 00:05:49:07

Sarah 

It is. And in fact, that that does lead us, if you like, into the A, C and C realm a little bit. I mean, I think one of Andrew Lee's latest books is about he has this term called communication, how we need to be a bit more intentional and deliberate about building those immediate capillaries and connections with our neighbours in the places where we, we live.

  

00:05:49:10 - 00:06:20:06

Sarah 

And your comments. Interesting, Phil, because I, I think that parts of the sector have absolutely, become more robust, more professional in, in that sense of the word, more rigorous. And I think that is quite appropriate for the scale and depth and nature of the challenges that parts of the sector are trying to address, but I'm not sure it's come at the loss of the kind of the those grassroots capillaries.

  

00:06:20:06 - 00:06:41:28

Sarah 

We have more registered charities now than we ever have before. We have seen an increase kind of year on year with the growth in those community organisations. And I'm not one of these people that subscribes to bigger is better and fewer is better. You know, the argument that there are too many charities, too many community organisations, it's inefficient.

  

00:06:42:00 - 00:07:06:14

Sarah 

I don't believe that because I think those grassroots community organisations are how we mobilise and how we relate and how we connect to people in place. And so of all the registered charities that we have in Australia, 60% of them have an annual revenue of under half $1 million. Right. So they don't have they're not they're not the professional, robust, systemic players.

  

00:07:06:15 - 00:07:26:12

Sarah 

60% of them are those small place based, grassroots, community based, collective based organisations that people build because they matter to them. So I think what we've seen is a huge diversification of the sector as we've seen its growth. And I take that as a sign of health.

  

00:07:26:15 - 00:07:55:05

Phil 

Yeah, and that's a fascinating one to think of. That diversity of all of those ones turning over, you know, half a million and for many way less than half a million. And you then compare that to some of the really big providers. Yes. Who, you know, some are close to or over $1 billion turnover. And we still refer to them as NFP or charities, but they, they have very, very little in common.

  

00:07:55:07 - 00:08:37:06

Sarah 

That's right. So point 5% of the number of total registered charities through the A, C and C have 56% of the total sector revenue. So you're right, we have a small number of really big organisations delivering essential services who are mainstream system providers into those universal services. We have universities, we have education, we have health. We then have, the sort of the sector that perhaps the Alannah and Madeline Foundation falls into, which are reasonably, you know, sized organisations, but a bit more kind of independent.

  

00:08:37:12 - 00:08:46:16

Sarah 

And then we have the majority, which are grassroots, community led organisations that are built with and by and for people.

  

00:08:46:18 - 00:09:08:13

Phil 

Yeah. And you mentioned there, I think really important as, as chair of the A, C and C you are AC Inc is the regulator for charities and trying to get that balance of appropriate regulation that can meet the needs of both is is pretty difficult, right.

  

00:09:08:16 - 00:09:37:29

Sarah 

It is. And look I am not my background is not as a regulator or a or a, a a a or a system player in any way, shape or form. One of the things that I think is fascinating about the A, C and C and the regulation that set it up was the explicit, request or or requirement in the legislation for the A, C, and C to be both a regulator as we understand it.

  

00:09:38:00 - 00:10:06:03

Sarah 

So the quality control, the compliance, the watchdog and an enabler, an encourager, a feeder into healthy non-profit and community organisations. Now there is tension absolutely between those two roles, but I love that both were absolutely explicit in the creation of the A, C, and C, because we must have the trust and the rigour and the transparency and the accountability.

  

00:10:06:04 - 00:10:22:16

Sarah 

Absolutely. But the end game is not trust and rigour in accountability. The end game is better, stronger, healthier community. So I think that's really interesting to observe. And it plays out when you look at the variation and the diversity and the health of the sector.

  

00:10:22:22 - 00:10:37:13

Phil 

Yeah. And do you get the sense, that trust in the charity sector, in the broader not for profit sector as well, is still pretty strong within the broader society?

  

00:10:37:16 - 00:11:12:18

Sarah 

Look, in the world that I live in, inhabit. Yes. Because I'm quite old now and most of my life is spelt spent in community, whether it's volunteering, professional and everything kind of in the middle. So I do I do acknowledge that I live in in a fairly large bubble, but it is a bubble. But if you look at things like the Edelman Trust research and some of the other research that's come out, I think the charity sector and the non-profit sector on its own has always been seen as pretty trustworthy.

  

00:11:12:21 - 00:11:33:23

Sarah 

One of the things I think that was interesting, though, is, perhaps a bit more diversity in the sort of current population about the worth of some of this stuff, not for those who are involved in it, but there was some research done, and I can't. I'm struggling now to think of the name, but it'll come to me, which are community promoted quite strongly.

  

00:11:34:00 - 00:11:55:23

Sarah 

That sort of looked at different demographics. And it wasn't about trust. As much as, you know, how much do you value, how much do you think the sector contributes? And just off the top of my head, it was about kind of three thirds. One third was phenomenal. Great. Need it. Love it. Get it. One third was yeah. Look can see it's important.

  

00:11:55:24 - 00:12:17:05

Sarah 

Not directly involved necessarily now but actually can understand why it's there. And see that it's important but not necessarily to me right now. And then a third was kind of me. Yeah. And it's that third the kind of method that is a larger proportion than perhaps it was ten years ago or 20 years ago. And that's the challenge, I think.

  

00:12:17:10 - 00:12:50:21

Phil 

Yeah. And even just thinking through that diversity of the sector, because many people would probably not even think that some of those very big providers of whether it's aged care or disability or whatever, are not for profits or charities, they think of them as providers of that service. And that's where it's probably changed quite a bit over the last 20 years or so, has been those very large organisations getting bigger because those services are in in greater demand.

  

00:12:50:23 - 00:13:15:15

Sarah 

And also I think it reflects a change in, perhaps how we understand broad based responsibility. So, you know, in other way of looking at it is to say that we have also seen in the same period of time, a real growth in understanding about what is a corporate license to operate. We've had corporate social responsibility. We've had the SDGs.

  

00:13:15:17 - 00:13:48:13

Sarah 

You know, we've actually seen a growth in other parts of, of our world acknowledging and understanding that they are also responsible for general health and wellbeing, whether it's in in climate or mental health or financial resilience. You know, enlightened self-interest is a is a really great motivation for change. So I don't think it's just that parts of our sector have grown because they've they're delivering essential services, perhaps more in a consolidated way than they were before.

  

00:13:48:16 - 00:14:04:07

Sarah 

I think it's also that there's been a a closer coming together of all parts of our community and responsibility and thinking about, you know, what is everybody's role in a, in a, in a healthy, strong, resilient social, cultural and economic community.

  

00:14:04:10 - 00:14:23:24

Phil 

And it's going to, chat a bit about philanthropy and obviously your previous role at Philanthropy Australia and now at the Alannah and Madeline Foundation. What are the sorts of things that you're picking up in the world of philanthropy at the moment?

  

00:14:23:27 - 00:14:25:09

Speaker 3 

Well, so.

  

00:14:25:11 - 00:14:25:17

Sarah 

I.

  

00:14:25:19 - 00:14:26:23

Speaker 3 

Think that.

  

00:14:26:25 - 00:14:53:12

Sarah 

The more things change, the more they stay the same in a way. I think Australia has always been a a generous and welcoming nation and culture. I mean, I think it is being stress tested at the moment in parts with people feeling perhaps disconnected or disillusioned or or in some way cheated out of what perhaps was promised.

  

00:14:53:15 - 00:15:32:16

Sarah 

But I think we have all. We've always seen ourselves, and I think we have always behaved as broad, as welcoming and generous. And I don't think that is I don't think that's different. We have always had a bit of a challenge, I think, with the kind of the high net wealth community in Australia, in terms of seeing philanthropy as something to be proud of and something to be loud about and something to advocate for and something to kind of talk about with joy in, in the worlds that those people live in.

  

00:15:32:18 - 00:16:00:16

Sarah 

And I think one of the results of that is that we are still a little bit behind kind of easy averages in terms of high net wealth, the proportion of high net wealth families and individuals who who give in a meaningful way. So I think there is still more upside to come as we kind of understand and embrace the role that philanthropy plays in social change, philanthropic practices have changed.

  

00:16:00:17 - 00:16:32:03

Sarah 

Absolutely. They've evolved. We understand, you know, more about good ways to give versus pain in the neck, ways to give. You know, we understand more about, well, the more you understand something and then the more comfort there might be with taking risk or funding advocacy or, you know, funding things beyond programs and services. So I think we have seen a really strong evolution in the last ten years of philanthropies appetite to step into new places and think about things differently.

  

00:16:32:05 - 00:16:56:28

Sarah 

But what hasn't changed is the nature of people. You meet one philanthropist, you've met one philanthropist. And I think where philanthropy is its strongest is where it it absolutely reflects the values and the aspirations and the lived experience of the person giving, because that's what makes it intelligent, thoughtful, sustainable and generous.

  

00:16:57:05 - 00:17:35:13

Phil 

Yeah. And it's fascinating to think of, you know, some of the, the very big high net worth donors and you see that reported in media, but also to be thinking of the number of, you know, less well-off, but certainly still very well off people who might be considering leaving some component of inheritance towards towards charity. I know it's talked about, but I wonder if it's talked about enough, enough, enough guidance is is being provided there to get people to think about about that as an issue.

  

00:17:35:16 - 00:17:58:18

Sarah 

That my view is, I don't think it's talked about enough. And I think we need much better guidance and tips and tools and easy access points into doing that. So Australia, on the whole, we are not we don't leave a lot of bequests. If you look at our OECD averages, we are not a high quest participation population.

  

00:17:58:21 - 00:18:26:22

Sarah 

And particularly at the moment where we're living through the biggest intergenerational transfer of wealth ever, it has to raise some questions about equity, and wealth creation and wealth distribution. So I believe that we have in Australia a big opportunity to really think about some of that wealth distribution through bequests, far more, holistically than we have to date.

  

00:18:26:24 - 00:18:46:00

Phil 

The other one that I had expected to see, perhaps a greater increase of than I have, is this area of workplace giving. I had expected to see that, become a big thing. Have you got any observations about workplace giving and how successful it's been?

  

00:18:46:03 - 00:19:09:07

Sarah 

Well, I think it has grown. I mean, it may not have had, you know, like huge great leaps that kind of create front page news. But if you look at the participation rate over the last 10 to 15 years, it absolutely is growing. Not only is it growing in terms of the numbers of workplaces giving, but it's also we're also learning much more about what makes it effective once you set it up.

  

00:19:09:13 - 00:19:36:28

Sarah 

And so those organisations that match giving that integrate giving with corporate volunteering that genuinely build their giving program on the corporate kind of DNA and values, those are the ones that are just stand out. What we're also seeing, though, at the other end of the scale, is kind of back to more grassroots giving. And we're seeing that in in corporates too.

  

00:19:37:04 - 00:20:08:01

Sarah 

So less perhaps. So we have the kind of the structured workplace giving programs, but we're also seeing more organisations stepping into kind of more responsive, reflexive, giving around issues. And at times so many charities now in their fundraising strategies have kind of community campaigns around themes and issues. We're seeing a huge take up, relative to what it was before in terms of corporates getting involved.

  

00:20:08:04 - 00:20:34:00

Sarah 

And we're also seeing that in community giving. You know, we've got a bit of a resurgence happening now in giving circles and community foundations, which is not about high net wealth at all. It's about collective participation in building the kind of local communities that we want, that we want to see. So whether it's big or small, whether it's individual or collective, I actually see that we are I actually think we are still seeing growth in all of those.

  

00:20:34:00 - 00:20:41:19

Sarah 

Maybe not exponential, but it's it's still continuing. And yes, there is absolutely room for a lot more.

  

00:20:41:22 - 00:21:21:16

Phil 

Yeah, indeed. Just reflecting on the governance of organisations and again AI seeds track the the data on this for many years now. But I'm mindful that the responsibility is on directors have continued to increase. Personally I've been delighted to see that that doesn't seem to have stopped people joining boards, because we do need good people on the organisations, whether they be the grassroots organisations or the or the biggest organisations or all of them.

  

00:21:21:17 - 00:21:31:23

Phil 

All of them. What's what's been your observation as you've seen the, the governance landscape evolve in the, in the sector.

  

00:21:31:25 - 00:21:57:04

Sarah 

So feel that's a bit of a Dorothy Dixon because, as you know, back in May, we held a discussion at one of our AC and see advisory board meetings where we pulled a panel of of governance experts together. And we had Susan Pascoe, Am, who was, the first A, C, and C commissioner in Australia. We had Gerry Munir from not for profit law Justice Connect.

  

00:21:57:11 - 00:22:34:07

Sarah 

We had Catherine Maxwell, from the Governance Institute, and we had your colleague Louise, from Education and Policy Leadership at the AIC. D and asked them these questions and, and was able to pull out some kind of themes. And there are sort of three key buckets that came out of that discussion. The first one that I think is pretty consistent and absolutely was reflected in the AI seeds non-profit governance study that was released earlier this year, is that, yes, boards and directors are absolutely saying there is increased pressure and demand on boards.

  

00:22:34:10 - 00:23:12:27

Sarah 

The demands are getting more diverse. There are growing expectations from stakeholders, be they regulators, funders, community, neighbours, and the expectations that boards will be increasingly kind of purpose literate. So how you make social change and also AI and digitally literate, there is evidence that this kind of cumulative impact of growth in diversity on demand and expectation and regulatory and poetry and kind of reporting requirements is having a bit of a dampening effect on how directors are feeling about their roles.

  

00:23:12:29 - 00:23:46:06

Sarah 

And there is evidence in some quarters that it is also dampening kind of appetite to participate, because it's not something that you can you can go into lightly. And that that feedback was, was in your survey, but it was also in April and also ACC director survey. So this isn't unique to non-profit charity governance. The experiences of the smaller grassroots community organisations, similar themes, but understandably much kind of more pointy immediate implications.

  

00:23:46:09 - 00:24:17:28

Sarah 

So board members are aware that there's increasing complexity, but may not have had the opportunity to really understand it. So that kind of anxiety, concern level, you know, we still haven't fixed fundraising. We've got DDR challenges, the decline in the kind of way structured volunteering has worked today, cost increases. I think it's true that the sector is sort of increasingly paying for things now that we never used to perhaps normally pay for, that we would get pro bono.

  

00:24:18:00 - 00:24:42:21

Sarah 

And this sort of meshing of community based and skills based board members is, is live and is complex and challenging. And it was interesting justice connect, did did a bit of analysis of the organisations that go to them to seek help. And these are the sort of the really small organisations and what they found is about, 90%.

  

00:24:42:21 - 00:25:10:04

Sarah 

I think it's about 90% of the organisations they support have no employees. So these are, you know, genuine grassroots, completely volunteer run organisations, and they are finding it hard to keep up with the compliance with the systems financial viability ability. And also and in some regional rural areas actually how to find directors where there are some populations and, you know, it's the same person doing 4 or 5 different things.

  

00:25:10:06 - 00:25:35:04

Sarah 

And what was really so one other comment, what was really interesting are some comments and reflections that Susan made from faith based organisations that I think have kind of really got us thinking or me thinking. Absolutely. Following the various Royal commissions needing to address abuses of power and poor governance that has left some really large, has led to huge changes and increase in standards.

  

00:25:35:04 - 00:25:43:18

Sarah 

That is absolutely needed. But one of the things that she said that I thought was fascinating was,

  

00:25:43:21 - 00:26:15:28

Sarah 

What is the role, what is making the sector distinctive in terms of this increasing corporatisation at the top end? And is it really appropriate for us to continue to kind of have the same governance and compliance requirements across all sectors? And is or is there perhaps a need for a bit of diversification and fitness for purpose based on purpose, so that we can still attract the right kind of directors and leaders?

  

00:26:15:29 - 00:26:21:29

Sarah 

And I just thought that was a bit of a fascinating question, because I don't think we've ever really challenged that or thought about that before.

  

00:26:22:01 - 00:26:54:19

Phil 

And it is a fascinating one. You know, I think back to my time on the, you know, the local committee of the, of the tennis club, for example. And, you know, the sorts of we had some amazing people on that, but grappling with all of the issues that do include responsibility and oversight for kids. Right? So in that way, it kind of doesn't matter what size of organisation that you're in, you still have those same responsibilities.

  

00:26:54:24 - 00:27:17:09

Phil 

I also think a little bit about, you know, chats I've had, particularly in regional Australia, were exactly right. You've got, you know, the local lawyer or accountant who might be on 4 or 5 different boards or committees within the town, and they are really stretched in terms of, in terms of finding the right, the right people. So it does remain a challenge.

  

00:27:17:09 - 00:27:53:19

Phil 

And as I always shout out, is, thank you to all those volunteer directors who are putting in those hard yards, whether IT committees or whatever. It's a really, really important role in, in terms of, the what next? Obviously, eyes been the topic of the, the last year or two. Climate remains an important topic. I was fascinated in some of the discussions in the UK about where things were heading there.

  

00:27:53:19 - 00:28:25:18

Phil 

In fact, what really surprised me there was where directors and executives of charities, particularly those with, dare I say, some causes that are, not universally popular, who were being threatened in social media in particular, which just wasn't on my radar. What are the sorts of things that you're seeing coming into the future, having perhaps the biggest impacts on the on the sector, any crystal ball gazing you've been doing?

  

00:28:25:21 - 00:28:56:00

Sarah 

I don't think it'll be any different to anyone else's fill. I think that the, intersectionality and the kind of intertwining of like major global issues, climate, health, economy, the in the dependencies that we have now globally are so obvious that it's it's really hard to think about something in isolation to any of those issues. I think that.

  

00:28:56:03 - 00:29:36:29

Sarah 

Our definitions of what a healthy society and a healthy community looks like are definitions of identity. They're all being kind of thrown up in the air and swirled around and challenged. Tech is absolutely a major driver in all of this for good, bad and everything kind of in the middle. And it kind of feels like everything's sort of all being shaken up, which on the one hand, absolutely is presenting some risks and some threats, but on the other hand, might be an opportunity for us to kind of redefine our own definitions of what we want that to look like.

  

00:29:37:04 - 00:30:03:21

Sarah 

So I, you know, I think we have agency in all of this. It might be, you know, some people have it more than others, but but how do we use our agency? And actually thinking about, well, what do we want community to be? What do we want society to be? What do we want identity to be? And then how do we live it through our through the practices of community organisations and nonprofits and all the other players in the system?

  

00:30:03:21 - 00:30:31:28

Sarah 

So yes, I think it's a bit mind boggling. Yes, we're in a time of change. Yes, there are major universal challenges around climate and and health and economy. But on the other hand, we we have agency in our place. So what do we do? What can we do? How do we practice that agency now in whatever way, shape or form?

  

00:30:32:00 - 00:31:04:11

Sarah 

So I hate for us to lose that sense that we have that agency to make those decisions closer to home. Yes, it's complex, but actually what we are also seeing are really amazing examples of civic leadership and engagement and particularly looking at sort of children and young people and how they're seeing this and where they see the opportunities and how they're stepping into some of this more creative space around collaboration and and participation.

  

00:31:04:11 - 00:31:38:01

Sarah 

So I haven't got crystal ball any more than anyone else has. What I would really love us to do, though, is not lose sight of our agency in this, and however small it might feel, the steps that we can take locally with a giving circle, or a community foundation, or the local tennis club, or the local cleanup volunteer crew, or a board position, or conversations that we can have with people that kind of help unearth some of the more complex issues so that we move out of this binary.

  

00:31:38:04 - 00:31:41:29

Sarah 

Well, if you're not familiar against me, we can all do that.

  

00:31:42:01 - 00:32:32:21

Phil 

What, what I've been super encouraged by, I guess, is the last number of years I worked with the Observer Ship program, and seeing that group of 25 to 40 year olds who are super engaged, super intelligent, super committed, and, and, and the sorts of work they are bringing to those boards and opening up different views. So that, to me gives huge encouragement that we that we are going to be all right into the future, despite all the all of the the doom and gloom and again, the work that the, the foundation that you're now involved with does amazing work across, across a I think you're just Australia aren't you.

  

00:32:32:28 - 00:32:34:21

Phil 

Yes, yes yes.

  

00:32:34:23 - 00:32:55:15

Sarah 

Yeah. You're right. And Phil, when we're in co-design with prepping around kind of digital literacy and you know, what they're experiencing in their digital lives, but they are equally inspiring and exciting and insightful about their experiences and what's needed. So, yeah, I think.

  

00:32:55:17 - 00:33:26:28

Sarah 

This is going to sound really Pollyanna ish, but if we give in to the doom and gloom, we're basically I think we're we're letting ourselves off the hook. It won't be doom and gloom if we choose to step in, collaborate, connect, think about it. Wrestle in the uncertainty and the grey. Build coalitions. Take our leadership and inspiration from the next generations who are coming through with all of these ideas and energy and resources.

  

00:33:27:00 - 00:33:31:18

Sarah 

You know we have to be part of shaping what we want and what we don't want.

  

00:33:31:21 - 00:33:46:29

Phil 

Sarah, I can't think of a better way of winding up what's been a fascinating conversation that with that, with that insight. Thank you very much for joining us today. Really appreciate your time and look forward to catching up again soon.

  

00:33:47:01 - 00:33:48:18

Sarah 

Thanks for the opportunity, Phil.