Boards with Purpose - Lisa Yen and James Sutherland

00:00:01:24 - 00:00:40:27 

Phil 

All righty. Well, I'm about set to go. So welcome to boards with purpose. Today we're talking about governance in sport. And I've got Lisa Yen, Chair of Basketball New South Wales. And James Sutherland, CEO of Golf Australia. Great to be talking about things that I guess so many of us in Australia are passionate about is about our sport, our sporting organisations and how sport fits into the community more broadly from a young age, all the way through to older ages. 

  

00:00:41:00 - 00:01:06:14 

Phil 

This importance of sport, I guess in terms of fitness and wellbeing, as well as winning competitions or winning your team when winning from the sideline. Lisa is chair of Basketball New South Wales. Tell me a little bit about that journey for you as a director, but also basketball, New South Wales itself. 

  

00:01:06:16 - 00:01:34:26 

Lisa 

Well basketball New South Wales, who I call very much my my family. And there are family because basketball and all sports they bring together and connect all communities. It brings that belonging the inclusion and shared purpose and it's it's it goes across all generations, all cultures and all regions. There's no divide and say a language that we can speak without even speaking. 

  

00:01:34:28 - 00:01:58:18 

Lisa 

So the importance of sport is, is that but also, as we can see it as the lifeline report also is indicated. And beyond the game report published by Sport New South Wales is the improve of mental health, reducing loneliness and also just general wellbeing of a person. It's just that you can't put numbers around that value in terms of sport. 

  

00:01:58:20 - 00:02:15:16 

Phil 

Fantastic. And James, so you've had a long career in in sport and various roles. But now at, at Golf Australia. Tell us a little bit about perhaps your journey and and the journey the Golf Australia is on. Yeah. Thanks, Phil. 

  

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:45:12 

James 

Nice to be with you today. And you too Lisa, I think I think Lisa summed that up very well. I mean, I've been very fortunate to have had 30 odd years working in sport, and I passionately believe that there's nothing in Australia that brings people together like sport does. It helps our communities to be safer, healthier, more inclusive, more fun and all of those sort of aspects. 

  

00:02:45:14 - 00:03:12:06 

James 

When you really boil it down, whether it's whether it's going to major sporting events and talking about them in watercooler conversations or it's right back to grassroots participation, like Lisa talked about local golf club, in our case, those sorts of things are really what binds communities together, but it also gives people a sense of purpose and health. And wellbeing is a really important part of certainly our sport. 

  

00:03:12:06 - 00:03:43:20 

James 

And I think that can be said of of my sports as well. We know and understand that golf is not just a sport, it's a lifestyle that people cover. People look forward to their their walk. Some people call golf a good walk, spoilt. But you know, most people look forward to their to their round of golf and catching up with friends and doing the best they can to get the ball in the holes as quickly as they possibly can. 

  

00:03:43:22 - 00:04:26:24 

Phil 

Love it. With that evolving nature of sport from very much the community level all the way through to highly professional. The similarity is all of the organisations need to be governed appropriately, appropriately for the time of or the where their organisation is up to in its cycle. How have you gone about making sure that, say, the governance at Golf Australia or the governance of golf clubs is appropriate for what's needed? 

  

00:04:26:26 - 00:04:54:10 

James 

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there's really probably multi-pronged to that. But if I can separate the two in the first instance from a Golf Australia perspective, we are very conscious of and focussed on our role in the community, and I guess being that being the governing body for the game and supporting the game, we operate in a federal structure. 

  

00:04:54:13 - 00:05:28:16 

James 

And by that I mean that our state associations are our members. Our state associations have members which are districts and associations. And then then in turn, they have members that are golf clubs, and golf clubs have members who are the golfers themselves. And in the broader community, so often I think people can be guilty of thinking about Golf Australia or the national governing body sitting on top of a pyramid and and looking down on everyone and telling everyone what to do. 

  

00:05:28:19 - 00:05:51:02 

James 

I like to tell people in our organisation, particularly newcomers into our sport, who are working at Golf Australia, that we operate in a pyramid. The only thing is that we sit at the bottom of the pyramid. It's an upside down pyramid and the owners of the game go all the way back to the community. They're the golfers of Australia and we serve them. 

  

00:05:51:02 - 00:06:14:21 

James 

And we are in this role, the role that we are as the governing body, because they have vested that responsibility in us to their golf club, to their association, to their state and to us, and to be very focussed and clear that our line of sight needs to keep going back, not just to our state associations, but to the golfers of Australia and how we serve them. 

  

00:06:14:21 - 00:06:38:07 

James 

So sure, at the end of the day, we've got to take a national approach and say what's in the best interest of the game? And I'm sure we'll come to some of the intricacies of developing strategy and clarity around purpose. But quite simply, our message to the golf community is that our purpose is all about inspiring more and more people in our country to play more golf. 

  

00:06:38:09 - 00:07:16:04 

James 

It's a pretty simple filter on what we're doing and whether we're doing that well enough. Of course, there'll be lots of opinions on what should be prioritised and whatnot, but in a Golf Australia, from a golf Australian perspective, that's the basics. We can talk a little bit about how that governance structure works. If you want to delve into that detail, but then to separate that, then into the the other part of your question, Phil, to talk about what happens at community level in golf clubs, I think the starting point, I won't go on for too long here, but the starting point is to understand that every club is different. 

  

00:07:16:06 - 00:07:39:01 

James 

There are probably three quarters of the clubs in Australia don't don't have any employees, so they're entirely volunteer run. About a quarter of them are do have professional staff. They might have a general manager. They they or a secretary that is paid an honorarium to run. There are clubs that have over 100 employees as well. So they're all different. 

  

00:07:39:01 - 00:08:03:20 

James 

And what we encourage of them is for them to think about being the best version of themselves. And our role is to encourage them to know and be aware of what's happening in our sport, and how they can elevate themselves and learn and develop best practices in governance and and operational management to be the best versions of themselves. 

  

00:08:03:22 - 00:08:21:04 

Phil 

Fantastic. And Lisa, to use James's analogy there about the pyramid, I'm guessing basketball New South Wales is kind of in the middle of the pyramid. I won't ask whether you're the top middle or the bottom middle, but just explore that a little bit with. 

  

00:08:21:07 - 00:08:47:09 

Lisa 

I absolutely agree with James and the pyramid structures exactly what we are in as well, and it is absolutely spot on that the local associations are at the top. I mean, so states born organisations are always going to be the meat between the sandwich between that and the nodes as the national state are organisations. And so when we talk about our stakeholders are our local associations. 

  

00:08:47:09 - 00:09:09:19 

Lisa 

And when they do well, we do well. When they don't do well, we don't do well. And that's when I say we, I say we as a sport, not we as a state. We is encompassing national and so forth. So when there governance is weak, we feel it too. And you'll see local associations. James touched on the point where you've got local stations are run. 

  

00:09:09:21 - 00:09:31:25 

Lisa 

Well, we've got purely run on volunteers and, you know, some of them don't have that skill set of let's just use one of the skill sets of financial management or even good governance of signing off. And I'll take it right down to basics of signing off payments for the club association should have two centuries versus one, so the door becomes open. 

  

00:09:31:25 - 00:09:51:02 

Lisa 

If the governance there is not strong enough, there is potential implications there which then upload it to the state and then it's a call out to the state. Can you please help? So we actually have a focus and we've identified it's always been a focus but a more, more focussed lens at the moment on improving the governance of our local associations. 

  

00:09:51:02 - 00:10:17:08 

Lisa 

And that's what we call what we've designed. Song called governance in a box, and having ongoing webinars to educate those who are particularly the board, because sometimes at those levels, the board, the board and management aren't too different or could be the same, and they're areas that we need to alert and say, well, okay, there is, there is there's a difference with responsibility as operational manager versus, you know, a governing, a director of a board. 

  

00:10:17:08 - 00:10:39:27 

Lisa 

And you need to be aware that process and protocols have to be put in place to ensure the sustainability of the association, because from there, lens and this is where that passion comes in. Right? I just want to get the kids on court. I just want I just want more people to play. We understand that. But you can't do that if there's no money in the bank or you know, you're not collecting fees or whatever it may be. 

  

00:10:39:27 - 00:10:42:07 

Lisa 

So that's what I. 

  

00:10:42:09 - 00:11:00:04 

Phil 

Wanted to pick up on passion. Because you do need you do need the passion because otherwise people won't get involved. But you've also got to get some balance with that. How have you looked at doing that, say, even within the basketball New South Wales. 

  

00:11:00:07 - 00:11:24:09 

Lisa 

On the board. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's funny. So our board probably about five years ago was a fully a board full of basketballs. And I joined the board and I'm going to meet I don't play basketball. If you see me standing I am the shortest board member. And I'm just going to tell you the story because I joined the board in Covid and we met for zoom for a whole year. 

  

00:11:24:09 - 00:11:47:06 

Lisa 

And obviously and then at the end of the year, there was a first Christmas meeting, and I looked around and thought he would go, I've got to meet all the board members who are basketball. So I pulled out my nine centimetres high heels ready to go, went to the lunch meeting and yes, I was still the shortest. So I am not a basketballer, but I have a passion for basketball. 

  

00:11:47:08 - 00:12:13:10 

Lisa 

But I also bring that independent commercial lens for from business sustainability point of view. So because of that, what I did see on the board was that because of the skill set and the passion was there, but the skills not so. So we've slowly evolved the board to where we are now. We're a fully skill based board. We're calling for a basketball director is tricky, calling for a basketballer who has the skills that we need to join the board is tricky. 

  

00:12:13:15 - 00:12:39:03 

Lisa 

Unfortunately, we should have one coming up our next AGM and I'm very, very excited about that and to bring that back on board. But saying that those on the board do have a passion, passion, the sense that, you know, their children play or they were previous players. But then I think, I personally think and based on observation, there is importance that they do have a linkage to the sport and not just being a fan. 

  

00:12:39:04 - 00:13:09:21 

Lisa 

I hear to quite often. I love watching basketball. I love watching the NBL and the NBA. I hate to break it to you. There's just a bit more than watching that in when it comes to sports administration and so forth. So the balance is very delicate at a board level because what happens is you've got the passion, you've got the level of vest, personal investment, investment, sorry from the directors, which will dictate how the board can can operate. 

  

00:13:09:24 - 00:13:16:27 

Lisa 

Make sense. And and remember we're all volunteers. So that's that additional layer that you've got to add to it, which is different to commercial boards. 

  

00:13:16:28 - 00:13:42:18 

Phil 

Absolutely. And James, I'm assuming that the passion of the golfing community is is similar, but maybe a bit different than, than the basketball community. How do you make sure you're getting that right? Balance between the passion, achieving the the cause, but also keeping that commercial focus firmly in view? 

  

00:13:42:20 - 00:13:57:21 

James 

Yeah, there's no doubt one of the great things about sport is, is the passion. People who will love their sport and at times they can they can sort of overlook that, that purpose or that that broader. 

  

00:13:57:24 - 00:14:23:00 

James 

Broader interest to the game holistically. And so I guess one of the things that that I strongly believe in and, and I have had a role in, in both cricket and more recently in golf, and one of my, one of my very first observations coming into golf was just how fragmented the industry was as a whole. So not just talking about federation, but but the industry as a whole. 

  

00:14:23:00 - 00:14:51:18 

James 

It's a $10.3 billion industry in Australia. So $10.3 billion of household expenditure is spent on golf every year. There's no sport that would come close to those sorts of numbers. But it's it's vast. There's professional bodies, there's equipment manufacturers, there's tourism bodies and what have you. And one of the things that I felt that we needed was we needed to have a view holistically about what was in the best interest of the game. 

  

00:14:51:18 - 00:15:10:14 

James 

And in 2021, we went through a process of reviewing the state of the game, where we were up to talk to everyone in the industry and say, where are we and what might we do in the future? And at the end of 2021, we launched the first ever national strategy. It wasn't the Golf Australia strategy for golf in Australia. 

  

00:15:10:18 - 00:15:35:14 

James 

It was an industry wide strategy that gave everyone a line of sight to some ambition, some optimism, some of the challenges that the game had. And and I think that, you know what I ultimately believe, coming back to your question around this passion piece is everyone's passionate, but people are passionate about different things. They're passionate about the game, but they have. 

  

00:15:35:15 - 00:15:58:13 

James 

And we all know that people have their little passion projects or what have you. But having a line of sight to a bigger picture and what is it? What is absolutely in the best interest of the game? And I spoke before about purpose, about the simplicity of inspiring more Australians to play more golf allows you to cut through with a broader strategy. 

  

00:15:58:13 - 00:16:25:09 

James 

And and I guess just a tiny bit of context there in a passion moment that I can remember back into my cricket days where we had a meeting of all the state associations, there was a hot topic that we were debating and it was getting quite fiery. And the facilitator was a lady who she just cut through with a comment to say something along the lines of we all love cricket, don't we? 

  

00:16:25:09 - 00:16:47:01 

James 

And we all want it to be great. We need to sit here and realise that we've got actually got so much more in common than we've got in opposition. So let's work on the positives and focus on those sort of things, and then that will help us solve some of the minor, irritating issues that are creating some of the conflict. 

  

00:16:47:03 - 00:17:27:25 

Phil 

And it's a fascinating one to me. And while you were chatting there about the size of the industry of golf, where you've got the elite performers of the sport, you've got the people that are, I guess, more from a commercial perspective, where there whether it's apparel or clubs or courses itself, and then you've got the local, dare I say, hacker on the weekend or during the week, all who have different things that they want to get out of their involvement in the, in the sport. 

  

00:17:27:27 - 00:18:20:00 

James 

Yeah, absolutely. And that's where as a sports administrator, you very quickly come to learn that you can't please everyone all the time. No matter what you do, you will, in your decision making offend or disappoint someone. But that's where this this higher purpose and the strategy that we have for our organisations and some sort of commonality around that and understanding allows you to have a filter that anchors you to good decision making, good progress, but also good decision making that allows you to explain decisions that are often very difficult and fraught, but still need to be made in the best interest of the game. 

  

00:18:20:00 - 00:18:36:01 

James 

And if you if you flip flop around that and don't have some Anchorage back to a broader strategy, higher purpose, vision, purpose, then you will quickly lose the confidence of your constituents. 

  

00:18:36:03 - 00:19:13:04 

Phil 

Absolutely. And Lisa, I was just reflecting a little bit about participation in basketball. Well, without sounding ages, I'm going to say that the participants in basketball medium are more likely to be younger than in golf. So you've got another set of key stakeholders for your sport, which are the parents of those people. And they, I know, also have very strong views, having sat alongside a few basketball courts in my time, how do you make sure that that other group of stakeholders is also looked after? 

  

00:19:13:07 - 00:19:55:06 

Lisa 

And that's a that's a really good question. And actually goes back to what James talked about is that strategy, but also ensuring that that strategy is communicated embraced by also the for us, our stakeholders being the local associations, but ensuring that they communicate to their stakeholders, being the parents. Now, when that communication breaks down and you've seen and you will see in media when communication breaks down in those levels, but it's also taking them on the journey and telling the stories, taking the Intel and showing the picture of where where we are taking the organisation and where we're taking them, where we're taking the sport and how we're working together nationally. 

  

00:19:55:06 - 00:20:21:03 

Lisa 

So it's not just not just, you know, bicycle New South Wales, there's also encompassed Basketball Australia, but also compass all the local associations as well. And together we'll move the sport forward. And that's the joy of being a federated model. Everyone has their passion piece. Everyone has an opinion. And my, my little John shouldn't be sitting on the bench side for more than five minutes is a common call we get on Monday morning after the Sunday games. 

  

00:20:21:07 - 00:20:42:09 

Lisa 

But yeah, it's a communication and that they understand that there is a bigger picture here that we're trying to achieve. And without that united front and working together, that in some ways what they also don't understand and from a parent point of view is this is actually a business. They just see they see the sport, they see the passion. 

  

00:20:42:09 - 00:20:55:15 

Lisa 

But it's actually a business, because if you don't run it as a business, you will have the sport will not succeed. We cannot get it up, as we can see from other sports at the moment. Yeah. When it's not run well the potentially could be risk. 

  

00:20:55:18 - 00:21:17:03 

Phil 

Lisa, I heard you put two words close together there the joy of federated structures. And I think I've really heard those two words put close together in the past. Tell us a little bit more about federated structures from basketball perspective. And then I'll go to you on on golf. 

  

00:21:17:06 - 00:21:18:12 

Lisa 

You missed that tongue in cheek. 

  

00:21:18:18 - 00:21:20:24 

Phil 

You enjoy. 

  

00:21:20:26 - 00:21:56:19 

Lisa 

There was a bit of a little some brackets around that joy. The joy. It actually is joyful in the sense that we over the last probably three years since I've actually been chair, we actually work very closely now with the states and territories and Bicycle Australia. We meet twice a year together and I've just come back from Melbourne from a the AGM, a meeting, and we spend two days each six months looking at what Buswell looks like overall in each, not just each states but nationally and how we work together nationally to move the sport forward. 

  

00:21:56:19 - 00:22:21:25 

Lisa 

So we discuss key topics, we discuss where we're at now, where we want to go. So it's coming together. Journey. And I do say it is joy because this my understanding from previous previously it wasn't the case, but we as a sport are deliberately working together to move the sport forward. So and there's a lot of sharing too between the I'll speak from the chair perspective, the chair. 

  

00:22:21:28 - 00:22:32:13 

Lisa 

So we work together and if there's potential sharing in terms of modelling or ideas or concepts, rather than recreate the will, let's work together on it. 

  

00:22:32:15 - 00:22:41:22 

Phil 

Makes makes sense. What about in the world of golf? James, the federated structure for you go. 

  

00:22:41:25 - 00:23:20:02 

James 

Golf's a little bit different in that we've got under our Constitution. We've got seven member states and territories. Act is part of New South Wales. So northern territories are is a single member. But over the course it happened before my time golf moved to a unitary model or principle, a unitary model in in the late 20 tens. And so now six of the seven state associations are actually effectively operated in a management sense by Golf Australia. 

  

00:23:20:03 - 00:23:58:24 

James 

They still have their own state association boards who have a role in their community and obviously are accountable back to their districts and and clubs. But all of the staff of all states by New South Wales are employees of Golf Australia. So from our perspective, in terms of operating the national strategy or delivering on the national strategy, there's a really strong alignment and it's a it's a huge leap of faith and confidence in Golf Australia for the members to have chosen to do that going back a few years. 

  

00:23:58:24 - 00:24:26:25 

James 

And and ultimately there's of course we're accountable to that. And that needs to be reviewed every, every few years. But from our perspective, during this time where golf has seen a significant period of growth, we can we can definitively say that working together with our state associations, associations and the alignment on our strategy is driving the game to greater heights than we've ever seen before. 

  

00:24:26:27 - 00:25:05:12 

Phil 

Fantastic. And it's fascinating to see the different models that can work across the very broad, not for profit sector. You're talking a little earlier, James, about the purpose of the organisation and the measurement of of that purpose. You've obviously picked up on the metric of participation as being the, the primary one. Are there any other areas that you're looking at in terms of your your benchmarking that you look at on a regular basis? 

  

00:25:05:14 - 00:25:30:09 

James 

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think the health of the game can be measured in all sorts of different ways. And we, for example, closely monitor the financial health and stability of our of our golf clubs and places to play. One of the interesting things for us is that within our federal structure, and we've talked through that ownership structure of the place that clubs have in that federal structure. 

  

00:25:30:16 - 00:25:57:18 

James 

There are now increasingly more and more places to play golf. The not are not inside the pyramid that are not part of that federal structure and community. And just to put a tiny bit of context around that, there are 4 million adult Australians that played golf, hit, hit golf balls in one form or another last year, but only 12% of them are members of golf clubs. 

  

00:25:57:20 - 00:26:25:25 

James 

So if you think about that context, there are there are literally three, 3.5 million people who are not a member or a part of our governance structure, our federal structure, and they are playing the game in all sorts of different places. And and so for us, we need to continue to think about how we serve, not just the members of golf clubs who are participants within our federal structure. 

  

00:26:25:25 - 00:26:53:24 

James 

But we need to think about the 3.5 million who are coming into the game and experiencing it for the first time, and working out how we can have a direct relationship with them to what I call fuel their healthy addiction in the game and to to play a greater role to to help our tide rise. But also, if you think about it, the next golf club member is actually coming from outside from that broader playing and participant base. 

  

00:26:53:24 - 00:27:28:16 

James 

And so part of our strategy more broadly, coming back to your question is not just about the official participation numbers inside the Federation. It's also thinking about how do we bring new people into the game, how do we connect with them, how do we give them great experiences so that they they want to keep coming back? Because ultimately, my view as a sports administrator, my the most important role that I have and anyone in this office that I'm working in has is to inspire the next generation to play and love our sport. 

  

00:27:28:21 - 00:27:48:24 

James 

If we're not doing that, the sustainable future of our sport is in in doubt. So that might be a 15 or 20 year view. When you think about a primary school kid today and whether they play golf, love golf, want to play, become a consumer and a member of a golf club down the track. But the key thing that we do is inspiring more people to play and love our sport. 

  

00:27:48:24 - 00:27:59:26 

James 

And that then comes back to not only operating within inside of that federal structure, but thinking about the broader community and how people into our game. 

  

00:27:59:28 - 00:28:22:04 

Phil 

And that would take from a basketball example being quite different, because I'm assuming most of the people that are playing basketball will be members of a club or linked through that club to an association. So that membership model, I'm assuming, is stronger in basketball than it is in golf. 

  

00:28:22:07 - 00:28:45:03 

Lisa 

I'd say that the membership model is a bit clearer, so anyone who is a member of a local automatically a member of Basketball New South Wales. But that's just not players, that's also volunteered managers. It's also coach referees, you know, school tables and so forth. So our participation numbers are about 100,000 in New South Wales at the moment. 

  

00:28:45:07 - 00:29:08:03 

Lisa 

And we to are looking at the academies. There are so many private academies just due to the demand of our sport. Like, you know, recently. You know, I always keep saying is that we turn away 10,000 kids a year in New South Wales every year, 10,000 plus. It's just a fact. And because of the lack of facilities. 

  

00:29:08:03 - 00:29:29:12 

Lisa 

So our biggest risk is we can't keep going because we don't have any courts. I get calls saying, well, hold on from an adult male over say 35. I said, but I had to play 9:30 p.m. game tonight. And I went, well, I've got to. I hate to break this to you, but you're lucky to even get a game. 

  

00:29:29:14 - 00:29:52:16 

Lisa 

You know, the courts are maxed out literally from 6:30 a.m. to 10:11 p.m. a night. That totally maxed out. Still turning away kids. So then we're looking at other facility models and working through that option now and what that looks like. So it's it's tricky for us to, to grow up participation because we're restricted. 

  

00:29:52:19 - 00:30:28:01 

Phil 

And that's fascinating. If I then think about strategy and risk is key roles and boards. Right. So you've gone hugely successful in achieving a purpose which you are now struggling with as the the governance of these organisations. How are you making sure, I guess, that you've got the right people coming through your board into the future to try and deal with those challenges and think about what is the next part of your strategy. 

  

00:30:28:03 - 00:30:50:20 

Lisa 

Yeah. So it's that's a very good question because we're at the Australia, we're actually at the point where we we have the interim CEO, we're moving to appoint a permanent CEO. But our number one risk is facilities. Right. And so how to get facilities was a combination of funding. And obviously funding is not doesn't grow on trees particularly from government. 

  

00:30:50:22 - 00:31:21:04 

Lisa 

Then you've got to look at private sector funding. Then you've got to look at how much money are we making as a sport when we're in the for purpose organisation. So then you've got the funding piece and then you've got the access to land or buildings. So part of my last two years I set up a facilities innovation group to look at this, to see what else can we do, but rather to the traditional model of having, you know, just build it takes at least 10 to 15 million to do two courts. 

  

00:31:21:07 - 00:31:42:26 

Lisa 

Right? It's and obviously it costs different for each state. I think it's a little bit cheaper in Victoria, but in New South Wales it's really, really expensive. So you know some of the ideas that we float is will you move the training to what we call the warehouse facilities, where you get the warehouse and we put a few courts down for training and then keep the complex games to the actual courts and so forth. 

  

00:31:42:26 - 00:31:58:03 

Lisa 

So we're looking at models and options like that. We're looking at the scheduling and timing to see we'll get more times, you know, to the point where we reduce if we reduce the game by a little bit into the time, how can we give it another game in, you know, nationally we're speaking in other options. It's not a New South Wales problem. 

  

00:31:58:03 - 00:32:15:27 

Lisa 

It's a national problem. We are probably have the biggest problem in terms of all the states, but it's a national problem. So every time we have a World Cup or fever or like, you know, in July the Opals are playing, China are coming to play the Opals. Now that's going to create another I love basketball head. I get on the court. 

  

00:32:15:27 - 00:32:33:25 

Lisa 

So it's a big problem. And the board needs to be aware of how we how we address this strategically ensure we have the right skills on the board to think this through, but also operationally, the support that we need to actually set to this to fruition. 

  

00:32:33:28 - 00:33:04:22 

Phil 

And if I think about golf, infrastructure is obviously a major part of golf. Although you said, James, with so many people playing golf off a golf course, I guess that does make it somewhat different. But for you as a board and CEO of the Peak Body, how do you look at this area of emerging challenges around infrastructure? 

  

00:33:04:25 - 00:33:28:09 

James 

Yeah, look, I think there's a lot that Lisa just spoke about there that I can relate to. Obviously, basketball is played in a very different way to to how golf is played. But we face we both. I think both Lisa and I would agree that this problem that we have is better than the alternative, which is not having the demand and having too much capacity. 

  

00:33:28:09 - 00:34:01:25 

James 

And right now golf is in just like basketball, in a really fortunate position of thriving, never, never having seen so much demand. And we need more golf courses. We need more places to play than ever before without getting too political. It's somewhat ironic that in New South Wales, the busiest golf course in the country is being downsized, whereas in other parts of the country, governments like in South Australia are putting money into the build of golf facilities and golf courses. 

  

00:34:01:25 - 00:34:31:04 

James 

But I will not digress too much on on that hobby horse. But I think the thing for us is, is very much focussed around how do we let people understand. So one is giving people great experiences, making sure there are more, not less. And that's working with government, local councils, investors in the game to to help us grow more facilities, but also to tell the story about golf that it is. 

  

00:34:31:12 - 00:34:47:28 

James 

We've got this saying all golf is golf. So there may well have been 10 or 20 years ago, a perception that golf was a sport, that you had to be a member to play, you had to be have a certain handicap. We had to have a handicap. You had to be of a certain ability. You had to wear certain clothes. 

  

00:34:48:05 - 00:35:18:01 

James 

All of those things we have tried to change perceptions around so that people would feel welcome in us. But we also understand that golf can be played anywhere, anytime. It's that's one of the beauties of indoor golf, of simulated golf. Now, when the sun goes down, you can still play a round of golf. With the technology that's available today, you can go and play a round of golf and and do that with friends in a way that people haven't been able to do before. 

  

00:35:18:01 - 00:35:48:22 

James 

And so that is meeting some of the challenges. But in other parts, golf clubs like never before have got waiting lists for membership. They've got no spare two times. You know, you've got to set your alarm clock to try to get a tee booking at certain clubs at a preferred time. Again, nice problems to have, but as a governing body, part of our responsibility is to create more opportunities for people to play, not less, and even encouraging people to think about rather than playing 18 holes. 

  

00:35:48:22 - 00:35:58:09 

James 

What about playing nine holes and you at least get some sort of a golf fix? Benefit is and isn't the ultimate 18 that some people find for. 

  

00:35:58:12 - 00:36:36:24 

Phil 

And can I pick up a perhaps on some of the complexities of governance and governance issues that both sports are facing? But I'll start with golf. I'm I'm thinking there through things like greater stakeholder expectations, things like work, health and safety legislation, things like child protection and the responsibilities of directors in ensuring all of those things are covered, and whether that's at the local golf club board or at Golf Australia. 

  

00:36:36:25 - 00:36:46:07 

Phil 

How are you trying to deal with those emerging complex issues? 

  

00:36:46:09 - 00:37:15:19 

James 

Well, I think we we have an important role to play to provide support and guidance to our clubs, which as I said before, the vast majority are entirely volunteer run. They don't have the resources. They are stretched anyway. I mean, when we have growing pains throughout our sport and that's that's the challenge, but that's not necessarily replicated with a long queue of people who have their hand up to be volunteers. 

  

00:37:15:21 - 00:37:44:16 

James 

I heard it heard someone say that, there's only one, one group of people in the workforce that are concerned about artificial intelligence taking their job. And that's the volunteer sports administrator. Because because really the the queue isn't there, but they play such an important role in whether it's a golf club or even I mean, even our board, the Golf Australia Board, is entirely volunteered. 

  

00:37:44:16 - 00:38:23:04 

James 

I don't get paid fees to do that. They do that for as a passion project, or in feeling that they're making a contribution to the sport and society more broadly. And that's that's really, as we said, part of the role. I think part of this is helping people to believe and understand that they're a part of something bigger, a social movement, a leisure activity that is community building, but at the same time trying to not make it as complex and difficult and bureaucratic as, as some people can see it. 

  

00:38:23:12 - 00:39:10:09 

James 

CFB and and that's, you know, there's no doubt you've raised some of the issues around member protection and what have you. I think Sport Integrity Australia has done a fantastic job in helping us with a national integrity framework that has clarified things and unified things across sport and given significant guidance, but it's quite daunting for a volunteer sports administrator to come in and to be faced with all of these challenges, these risk management issues, these actual actual responsibilities that they have beyond just the duties of getting kids on a on a golf course to play or filling the t sheet or as, as Lisa said, getting kids on a basketball court and making sure everyone 

  

00:39:10:09 - 00:39:15:19 

James 

gets there and have paid their dues before the first jump ball goes. 

  

00:39:15:21 - 00:39:45:13 

Phil 

And Lisa with, I guess a lot of young people in basketball, this area of child protection must be on the minds of your directors. But I'm also wondering at the club level or the association level, where they might not necessarily have that sophistication of people on on boards or committees? How do we get that message out there so that it's clearly understood? 

  

00:39:45:15 - 00:40:11:07 

Lisa 

So in relation to child safeguarding matters, there is zero tolerance, zero zero tolerance. I cannot say that even strong enough. And it comes from top like in terms of national all the way down to grassroots. And we it works relatively actually works well in our framework because we have a very clear process and protocol, like it's black and white, that's non-negotiable. 

  

00:40:11:09 - 00:40:28:19 

Lisa 

And everyone knows what to do, what to do, but everyone just knows what to do. They know. They know what the signs are, they know who to call, when to call, and it gets escalated. There is a very clear process, so I know at what point at the operational levels, they know when they need to let me as chair and when the board needs to know. 

  

00:40:28:21 - 00:40:48:19 

Lisa 

And it seems from the locals local. No, no, exactly what they need to call. So so we've worked really hard in that space because it's a we just will not tolerate any of that behaviour. And so if there's any question about call the SSA first. We've got integrity officer, call them first. Check them out and they will direct you where to go. 

  

00:40:48:19 - 00:41:06:19 

Lisa 

So we have the policy. If any doubt call us first. We will talk you through. And then if needs be escalated we then have an integrity framework of Australia we work very closely with. And there's systems and protocols. So for us it's very clear. It's yeah you can ask anyone on the last week what they know exactly what they need to do. 

  

00:41:06:24 - 00:41:37:04 

Phil 

Fantastic. Sounds, sounds a really sensible approach as well. So I want to pick up a little bit on perhaps the lessons that you may have learned through your number of years on the, on the board of basketball in New South Wales. What have you picked up that you think, oh, that's been really helpful. And other directors or administrators might find useful in a different sport, for example. 

  

00:41:37:07 - 00:42:06:19 

Lisa 

Yeah, it's it's been absolute privilege to be on this board. I have enjoyed and I still do enjoy immensely. What I have learnt is that every sport is different. But then even at our our sport, every state is different. We have different risks, different priorities and slightly different strategies. So with any board, I think the key here is the volunteering. 

  

00:42:06:21 - 00:42:30:25 

Lisa 

There's different levels of of investment not investment investment by directors. So it's very for me personally as a chair it's it's difficult to share a board when the levels of engagement varies from I just want my name on the board versus, oh, can I do more crossing over to operations line. So it's just what's the word I'm going to say. 

  

00:42:30:25 - 00:42:55:08 

Lisa 

It's just putting parameters around the board and knowing how to operate as a board in this space, but maintaining your passion without doing the team's job. Now we're fortunate we have, you know, 40 staff who are fully paid and they do the work and they do it well. So it's hands out but minds in so and that's advice I'd give to to any directors. 

  

00:42:55:09 - 00:43:05:04 

Lisa 

Oh it's based on depending on your organisation obviously if it's a local association is slightly different. But at A-level as a so and so that would be the same. 

  

00:43:05:06 - 00:43:17:02 

Phil 

Fantastic. And James I might come to you on your your lessons learned and any any thoughts you'd like to share across that broader sporting community. 

  

00:43:17:04 - 00:43:43:02 

James 

Yeah. Thanks, Phil. I mean, I think my starting point is, I mean, I'm, I'm a devotee of of strategy. I wouldn't call myself a strategist, but I'm, I absolutely, passionately believe that, you know, strategy, whether it's at local club level or cascading up to a national governing body and even industry, as I talked about, as we've got in, in golf can be a real guiding light. 

  

00:43:43:02 - 00:44:15:27 

James 

And it allows people, when you think about it, people coming in as volunteers, they can operate in what can appear to be a bit of a silo and a bit of a almost a sheltered workshop, at times doing really hard grunt work that is important to get a golf club, a golf organisation operating. But for those volunteers that are so important to our sport to feel as though they're part of something much bigger, and they can see a line of sight in what they do to a national strategy. 

  

00:44:15:27 - 00:44:43:09 

James 

And the contribution to our social licence and our community is something that's really important. So I think that strategy and ideally a strategy that cascades from from top to bottom is, is really important. And that's something that we talk about a lot. And the combination of that with role clarity I think is really important. So as I said before, different golf clubs are different. 

  

00:44:43:09 - 00:45:32:16 

James 

We want them to be the best version of themselves. But those that do have professional staff, the general manager and a greens keeper and a professional professional coach, PGA professional operating in that environment. The delineation in in role between the non-executive volunteer administrator and the paid staff is really, really important. I saw some survey results the other day saying that only 57% of golf clubs felt that, and people operating on both the management and board side felt that there was sufficient role clarity to to know where the role of the the board member or the committee member and the the professional staff started and ended. 

  

00:45:32:16 - 00:46:13:24 

James 

And I think that itself is an indication there's significant room for improvement. But when it comes back to learnings, Phil, one of the things I'd say is if you can get the clarity around the strategy and and the understanding of being a part of a bigger picture combined with role clarity, it's amazing what you can achieve. But also, as Lisa said before, the journey is a volunteer administrator can be more of a joy than a pain when you understand how working together and achieving things and serving your community is is such a powerful thing. 

  

00:46:13:26 - 00:46:46:01 

Phil 

And just to pick up on that role clarity, my observation is, is that it's one of the great challenges, particularly when people are often wearing multiple hats at indeed smaller organisations where they might be a non-executive director, and also helping with the bunkers or helping with the courts on a on a Friday night. Right. But that that it's difficult to know sometimes what what hat you are you are wearing. 

  

00:46:46:03 - 00:47:05:20 

Phil 

I'm mindful we've covered a fair bit of ground today. But before we wrap up, any final comments or areas you wanted to touch on? Lisa, I'll go to you first. Anything else that you thought we should have been touching on today? That we that we haven't and no problems if there if there isn't anything? 

  

00:47:05:22 - 00:47:25:27 

Lisa 

I just want to say again, you know, I think I said for putting this podcast on because the privilege to share this with others who haven't experienced our journey and, and absolute joy to to talk and walk through. James, I've learned a lot about golf, which I've. And James, you don't hear this, but I haven't played before. 

  

00:47:26:00 - 00:47:27:26 

James 

We'll get you there loose. 

  

00:47:27:28 - 00:47:28:08 

Lisa 

Good. 

  

00:47:28:09 - 00:47:29:25 

James 

Good for you after this. 

  

00:47:30:00 - 00:47:58:03 

Lisa 

Okay. I look forward to it. You know, something to embrace is diversity of thought. People, a lot of people do shy away from it. And they, they, they do look for, like, like minded. I'd like to encourage others or others that sit on boards or others who are looking for directors to to think about what diversity of thought means for their board and how that can also move an organisation forward. 

  

00:47:58:06 - 00:48:00:24 

Lisa 

That would be probably. Yeah. 

  

00:48:00:26 - 00:48:06:06 

Phil 

Good. Good point. And James, any any final thoughts from yourself? 

  

00:48:06:08 - 00:48:31:16 

James 

Well I just think like in the first instance, it's a being on a being on a board of a sporting organisation is it's an incredibly rewarding experience from the perspective of serving, serving your local community. But it's also more than that. I think I would encourage people that are thinking about it to, to really to to dive into it. 

  

00:48:31:16 - 00:49:02:21 

James 

It's a great pathway into the non-executive director landscape. As Lisa said it is these are businesses. They in some cases they may be small businesses, but they are businesses that have a high level of complexity, a lot of public interest, a lot of issues, issues, rich day to day. It's like Lisa's nodding a head furiously there. As chairman of Basketball New South Wales, there are issues every day and they're they're sometimes complex. 

  

00:49:02:21 - 00:49:25:24 

James 

They need to be worked through. But to work through that effectively, you need processes, you need good governance and all of that. And so it's an amazing learning experience. And I think just to take that a step further, Phil, one of the things that we've done more recently is we've we've created a couple of in partnership with the seed, we've created a couple of courses. 

  

00:49:25:25 - 00:50:00:03 

James 

That one's a self-paced course about learning essentials for a volunteer administrator working in golf, an opportunity for them creating some case studies about what what it means to be a non-executive in the golf space and how you can learn from that. And then taking that a step further into a more a fuller, you know, governance, governance, education model through the governance Foundations courses the AIC do offers, the feedback we've had that from from people who have done those courses has been absolutely outstanding. 

  

00:50:00:04 - 00:50:27:04 

James 

It's been something that not only rewarding for them, but already we are seeing a level of improved governance across our clubs that allows us to have, you know, even greater aspirations for what clubs might achieve going forward. And I think that's sort of part of our role is we want people to to come into golf as as volunteer administrators and to have a rewarding experience. 

  

00:50:27:04 - 00:50:35:03 

James 

We certainly don't want them to resent the game or resent their experience, and that's all part of what we're trying to encourage as well. 

  

00:50:35:06 - 00:50:54:15 

Phil 

Fantastic. James. Lisa, it's been just great chatting today about governance in sport. And we know, as I said at the beginning, how important that is in our society to have well functioning, well governed organisation. So great catching up and look forward to chatting to you in the future. Thanks for that. 

  

00:50:54:18 - 00:50:56:12 

Lisa 

Thanks, Phil. 

  

00:50:56:14 - 00:50:58:01 

James 

Thanks. Thanks, Lisa. 

  

00:50:58:07 - 00:51:00:10 

Lisa 

Thanks, James.