Boardroom Conversations - Inside the AICD's Company Directors Course

This special podcast will take you inside the AICD’s flagship Company Directors Course (CDC). Whether you’re a current board member, aspiring director, or senior executive – the CDC is the gold standard in governance education. For more than 50 years, the course has helped shape more informed, capable and confident directors.

In this podcast, you’ll hear from three of the CDC’s over 100,000 participants. We’ll be unpacking what the course offers, how it equips board members for real-world challenges, and why the CDC is the right next step on your director journey.

Thanks to our guests Shirley Chowdhary GAICD, Tim Longstaff GAICD and Nicky Sparshott GAICD.

Transcript

BENNETT MASON

Hello, I'm Bennett Mason, and welcome to a special podcast from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. In this episode, we'll be talking about the AICD’s flagship Company Directors Course, or CDC for short. Whether you're a current board member, aspiring director, or a senior executive, the CDC is the gold standard in governance education. For more than 50 years, the course has helped shape more informed, capable and confident directors.

In this podcast, you'll hear from three of the CDC’s over 100,000 participants. We'll be unpacking what the course offers, how it equips board members for real world challenges, and why the CDC is the right next step on your director journey.

Let's get to our guests. SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY is the chair of Women for Election and an external member of the Sydney University Senate's People and Culture Committee. She also sits on the advisory boards of Propel Group and Mentor Walks. Tim Longstaff is an accomplished ASX director across several sectors. Right now, he's a NED with many organisations including Nine Entertainment, Aurizon and Inghams Group. Finally, Nicki Sparshott is an experienced international CEO and board director. Her most recent executive roles include global chief of transformation for Unilever and CEO of Unilever Australia. She's also currently on the boards of WWF and Moose Toys. Thanks very much to our guests for joining us today.

Let's get to it. Tim, I might go to you first. What motivated you to enrol in the Company Directors Course?

TIM LONGSTAFF

Well Bennett, I'd say there were three primary reasons. The first is that I'm a lifelong learner, and it really is important to keep reinvesting in learning, to build your skills and capabilities. Secondly, I was very conscious as I sought to transition to NED life that this was a new career. I wouldn't choose to become a bricklayer if I didn't train, and it was wrong to me to presume that whatever skills I brought from executive land were necessarily the right skills to be a non-executive director.

So, I wanted to learn new skills and bring a new mindset to being a director. And finally, there was a blunt reality that said that the CDC and being a graduate of the AICD is pretty much a gating item to non-executive director life. I wouldn't say a box to be ticked, but an important milestone to have if you wanted to put yourself forward credibly to chairs as a non-executive director.

BENNETT MASON

You raised some great points there, Tim, but what about you, Nicky? What motivated you to do the course?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

So, I've held a number of CEO roles and so had to liaise with a number of different boards and so my motivation was twofold. One was to walk in the shoes of the board members and the different considerations that they, at any point in time were having to face, and therefore the conversations that were coming up in meetings that we were having or decisions that we were taking. And equally wanted to know what it would be like to be on the other side, so that I could straddle between executive career and also non-executive life, but do it from a place of information and experience. So, I found it really helpful in making me a better executive in my existing CEO roles, but equally much more empathetic and understanding of the challenges that non-executive directors face, and the different perspectives that they bring to the table.

BENNETT MASON

Shirley, you've been in a similar situation. You've been both an executive and a board member. Why did you decide to enrol in the course?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

So, I was looking for a career transition. I was a lawyer, a corporate lawyer, and was looking for a career transition. I was really lucky to get a scholarship to do the CDC, and I think, for me, it was a bit like Tim, I was thinking about a board career. Not sure when I would do that. Thinking about moving into a CEO role, but wanted, like Nicky, to be able to understand both sides of that and make sure I had the learning and I was equipped to sit in those roles. And the scholarship was a huge bonus.

BENNETT MASON

I mentioned that the CDC is now over 50 years old, but it has evolved. It has changed. It has kept with the times. Shirley, what part of the course stood out to you the most, and why? Were there any modules or topics that you found particularly interesting?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

It's such a good question. As a lawyer, I think, and I see it today, a lot of lawyers feel the same way. I arrived thinking that I would be really comfortable with the bulk of the course, and maybe just the financial literacy part would be the bit that I had to work harder at. But I was really surprised at how much of the course felt new to me. So, I love the directors duties part. And the financial literacy, I think it should almost be compulsory training for anybody in the corporate space. So, I loved both of those.

BENNETT MASON

And, Nicky, you are not a lawyer. But what parts of the course really stood out for you? Were there any highlights?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

Yeah, the content was fantastic. And each of the modules were sort of stretching and challenging in their own right. But what I enjoyed the most was the case studies, the practical application of what we learnt in each of the modules, in the sort of final practicum I think was on the last day. And engaging with other people who were on the course who probably would not have passed in my natural course of life, but who brought a perspective to the table that I hadn't otherwise considered. So, I found the richness of the critical thinking and discussion that came from just others in the room, and the practical application on cases to be the most rewarding for me.

BENNETT MASON

I want to talk more in a little bit about that environment in the classroom and learning from your fellow students. But Tim, I'll just go to you with that question we asked the others. Were there any elements of the course that really stood out for you?

TIM LONGSTAFF

The thing that really stood out to me was that the course was practical and pragmatic rather than dry and academic. And yet at the same time, still rigorous. And equally picking up on Nicky’s point, the capacity to learn from your colleagues. The thing I love most about being on boards is sitting with colleagues who've got very different experiences to you. And that was the same from the course.

BENNETT MASON

Tim, what's the camaraderie like in the room and how valuable is that peer learning and networking aspect of the course?

TIM LONGSTAFF

Look, it's enormously important. I did my course during Covid and it was online, and so, that was good. But in truth, I'd probably vote for doing it in the room for that camaraderie. But seeing people, as Nicky said, from different backgrounds, from large and small entities, from listed and unlisted entities, from government and non-government entities, from private sector entities, for profit and non-profit entities. That breadth of perspective was valuable and learning from peers incredibly valuable too.

BENNETT MASON

And what about you, Shirley? What was the atmosphere like in the room with your fellow CDC participants?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

Oh, it was fantastic. And ten years later, I still keep in touch with many of them. I think the truth is that the CDC has managed to emulate the same environment that I think Tim mentioned that the board operates on. As a board, you live and die as a collective and in the room, it's the same kind of thinking that, you know, we split up into tables. We worked together on case studies and practical applications of the notes. But we are forced to think as a collective. and learning to do that with people from all walks of life and all different types of industry and sector is really eye opening. That was the best part of it. And also, the facilitators. I had facilitators who were still going and they're the masters, you know, Judy MacCormick, David Shortland, and they brought the materials, which sometimes can be quite dry, to life. And I think that was also, a really valuable part of the course.

BENNETT MASON

Great. Look, we know that the course can be enormously rewarding and there's great camaraderie with the other participants, but I don't want any listeners to get the wrong idea. We know that the course is also very hard work. There is quite a bit of study to do. Nicky, how did you prepare for the course before it began? And are there any study habits or tips you would share with people who might be considering the course?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

Yeah, prepare yourself for the bulk of information that's going to come your way that you need to read up on. So, it's not one that I would cram at the last minute for just, you know, chunk it down and read a little bit every day as you prepare for it. I think don't go into it expecting to understand absolutely everything you've read, but to take note of things that you want to question, that you want to deep dive further, that maybe sits uncomfortably or that really resonates so that you have the opportunity to engage in a really interesting dialogue, with your colleagues. So go in having enough knowledge to be able to actively be a participant. And then submit yourself almost to the course in the flow and trust that it will be uncovered over the course of the five days or however you choose to do the CDC. And that a lot of your learning actually comes from the quality of dialogue that takes place, you know, over that time.

BENNETT MASON

What about you, Tim? Any study tips for the material in the course?

TIM LONGSTAFF

Look. Yeah, Nicky said it right. Allow plenty of time. I read somewhere 80 hours of preparation, and that feels about right. So, it does require that. The other thing I did was to think about case studies and ask: “How would I, as a director, act in those circumstances?” And unfortunately, recent events - I'm thinking Star, WiseTech or MinRes - have given us circumstances where we could put ourselves in those situations and say: “What would I have done and why?” And that's a really useful mindset to take into the course. Very practical. It's very real. But it helps you bring, as Shirley said, bring the content very much to life.

BENNETT MASON

And I'm sure studying the CDC helps prepare you for some of those meaty board papers that directors often get. Shirley, I'll start with you on our next question. We know that the CDC does a really great job of preparing board members for their director roles, but what were some of the most significant insights or skills you think you gained during the course?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

So I got my first director role about six months after the CDC and even from, the point of doing due diligence, like I had a checklist, I had, items to think about, asking for and looking at before I became a director. And I think that's really helpful. But also, the CDC takes you through case studies that touch on everything from cybersecurity to AI and compliance and all of those things. And for the first two years, I think, of becoming a director, I went back and referenced my notes a number of times. It was really helpful. So, I think it does, to Nicky’s point, there are practical applications of those notes in the learnings, and that can't be understated.

BENNETT MASON

And Nicky, what was some of the skills you think you really gained through the experience?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

I would echo Shirley’s comments around just having this body of resource that you can keep coming back to, particularly as the world seems increasingly volatile and changes is the norm. So, to have a group of people, but also resources that you can tap into frequently is super helpful. There's probably two things I took away from it the most that have held me in good stead, whether in executive roles or on the board roles that I hold. And the first one is to listen twice as much as you speak. Actually, you know, there is a real art in just making sure that you've completely understood the challenge or the opportunity at hand, that you've listened to other voices, and you've been able to come to an informed decision that's been well considered. So, you know, my mom used to say to me, you've been given two ears and one mouth. Use them in that ratio. And I think that advice holds you well in the boardroom as well. And the second one is to, in equal measure, find the balance between being a stretch and a safety net. So you want to set, you know, really strong ambition and expectations so that you can propel a company forward, whether in an exec role or in a non-exec role and simultaneously provide that sort of safety net and make sure there is the right management of risk and governance to be able to do that appropriately and that there is an inherent tension in that. But that's also where the magic comes. So, there were a couple of things that I took away.

BENNETT MASON

That’s very, very good advice from your mother as well. Tim, what about you? What were some of the key skills or the key learnings you think you got from the CDC?

TIM LONGSTAFF

Look, the other points that everyone made have are absolutely right. I'd also add that the critical difference between the board's role in governance and management's role, and where does that line lie? It's so hard to get it right. I can't have a better quote than Nicky’s mother, but the proverb of “eyes in and hands out” is also used in these circumstances. And yet it's so tempting to want to reach in and grab something that you feel very familiar with. So, understanding that boundary was important. And the second thing to me very much, being an NED is not about a checklist. Shirley mentioned some checklists. They are useful, but ultimately, it's about dealing with the shades of grey, dealing with nuance, judgement, thinking about integrity, and at times having real courage. And to reflect purposefully on that before you embark on the journey was a key takeaway for me.

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

Can I just add something too. I think one of the things that happens in a boardroom is you often read papers, you formulate your own view in your mind, but then you come into a boardroom, and you often change your view or adapt your view based on the discussion in the room, what other people are saying. We're all better collectively than we are individually, and I think CDC sets you up for that. Like as Nicky said, you may not understand the papers when you're reading them. You may not be able to put it all into perspective, but when you get into the room and you've got the facilitator and you've got the benefit of all these people around the table. You come out with a different perspective. And I think that's really important.

TIM LONGSTAFF

And it's so fabulous in a board meeting, when you sit there thinking, oh my goodness, I'm glad the person opposite is here because I would never have been able to think of that perspective. And that is the power of the team that that brought out in the course by how you learn. And it's how it works in the boardroom.

BENNETT MASON

Have you had specific moments, Tim, in your board career where you've looked back and thought: “Oh gosh, this is something I learned from the CDC. I can now apply that to whatever issue we're dealing with as a group of directors.”

TIM LONGSTAFF

Look, several probably. Too many to mention, but the most really is about this question of the line between executives and being a board member. But secondly, also the delicate balance between the board's role to set, as Nicky said, an ambitious strategy, and yet the guardrails of risk. And finding again, that balance is something where I have, you know, like Shirley going back to the notes and thought again, have we got the balance right here?

BENNETT MASON

I'm glad the notes are still useful. Nicky, as we said earlier, you've been a board member. And at the same time, you've also got some key executive roles. How do you think the course helped shape your approach to being both an executive and a director?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

Aside from just walking in the shoes of the people that played both critical path to ensure a company's profitable growth and future, it's knowing, as Tim says, the difference of the role that you play when you hold those different roles. As a CEO, you are eminently more operational than you would be in a board. And as a board, you may at times be more conservative in the way you approach things than you might as an exec. And I think those dynamic tensions harnessed well can be incredibly constructive. One of the observations I've had, and whether that's in an exec team or in a board environment, is that you don't strive to be a high performing team by having necessarily harmony around the table. It's about having this incredible respect and integrity in the way you collectively operate, such that you don't fall into the trap of confirmation bias, but you are really happy to lean into the tensions, the conflict, the different perspectives with the intent to get to a much better outcome for the organisation and the team. And I think when you have that, and I've been privileged to work in a few capacities where that has really been there, it's an incredible competitive advantage for an organisation and that's what excites me about, you know, high performing boards or high performing exec teams.

BENNETT MASON

Shirley, what about you? As we said, you've been a lawyer. You've been an executive, now a board member. How do you think the course helped form your approach to those roles?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

I think, just after I, did the CDC, I became a CEO, and I think I echo what Nicky just said, that idea of respectful challenge is really, really important. And for the CEOs out there who are thinking about doing the course but not sure if it's too early, I would encourage them to do it because it really does give you a look into the other side. And often that relationship between CEOs and boards is quite difficult. So, I took that away from the course. That was really important. Interestingly, about two years after the CDC, I was the acting chair for a cybersecurity ransomware attack. And so that was all still fresh in my mind. That was really, really important and really helpful.

BENNETT MASON

Shirley, you're now a facilitator for the CDC, so you might have a unique perspective on the course. What are some of the key messages you think graduates should take away from the CDC?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

It's such a such a privilege to be a facilitator now. I would never have guessed ten years ago that I would have landed there. The first is that it's a huge investment, not just of money, but of time. You know, you're putting in the five days, the time to read the materials, the time to do the course, and then you've got the assessments afterwards. Be present. Take the time. I think the participants that struggle through the course the most are the ones that are in and out of the room, sending texts, on phone calls, trying to juggle everything. Really just take a break from everything else and focus on the course because it'll help you get through the easiest. I always tell people in my rooms when I'm facilitating to take, they’re smashed when they finish a day of CDC, like they're really exhausted, but to take half an hour when they go home and just do a page turn through the notes and make a few notes in the margins. Because it'll really help you when you get to the assessment. Just that little bit of refreshment at the end of the day. And then don't delay the assessment. Do it as soon after you finish that course, as you can. And Tim and Nicky are nodding their heads. Because it is freshest in your mind the day that you finish. On Friday or, you know, whatever day five is. And every day that goes by, it fades a little bit. And so really take the time to do it straight away, to do those assessments straight away. And then the last comment I would make is use your cohort. And so, when I did it 100 years ago, we didn't have WhatsApp groups, tells you how long ago I did it. But we used to email each other, and we worked as a cohort, a whole cohort. These days, you know, sign up for your study groups, get onto the WhatsApp group, use the collective learning to help you through the assignments, because that really, really helps.

And, your colleagues, as Tim said, will always think of something that you haven't thought of that might be crucial. And then talk to other people who've done the course, get study notes, do all of that. I haven't met somebody who's not willing to help everybody else get through it. Everybody understands that it is a challenge, but that's really important, working with the cohort.

BENNETT MASON

You talked a little bit about the assessments. We know that that process can be daunting for some who are weighing up whether to do the course or not. Shirley, can you describe a little bit what the assessment process is like?

00:23:27:01 - 00:23:47:13

Speaker 3

There’s three assessments. There’s a short answer, a long form and then a multiple choice. And our recommendation is that you do the multiple choice last. People want to race to that and get that done first. But in the multiple choice, there are always two answers that are very similar. And after you've worked through the other assignments, you have a much better idea of those subtle differences. So, we always suggest you do the multiple choice last. And marks always later if you do it last. But I would also recommend we still see people coming through the CDC who want to do the course but don't want to do the assessments. You don't get the GAICD unless you've done the assessments and you've passed. And I'm sure Tim and Nicky, have seen this too. But I, when we're interviewing for new directors on boards, quite often you see directors who have done the course but didn't do the assessment. They got busy, life got in the way, and years later they have to go back and do it again. And there's no way just to do the assessments, you have to go back and do the whole thing again. And so don't do that. Do the assessment, get it done, get the qualification. It is really worthwhile.

BENNETT MASON

Nicky, I saw you nodding there. How did you find the assessment process?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

It's daunting when you haven't been studying for, you know, such a long time. And then you’re thrust back into that environment. So, you know, you sort of have to get your head a little bit in that studying game. I echo everything that Shelly said, you know. It's almost like training for a half marathon. And they're not deciding to run the race. You know, you better off just giving it a good go and taking all of the insight that you've learned, that's top of mind. You know, better done than perfect is my view on this sort of stuff. But I would highly I would highly recommend it because I just think it also gets you out of the day to day. You know, quite often, I think in exec world, but also in non-exec environments, we can get so focussed on what's happening in our world on a day-to-day basis, that you can sometimes lose sight of the bigger picture. And I'm a big believer that there's moments for decisive action and there's moments for reflective inaction. And this is one of those great moments to just give yourself some, you know, to use Tim’s phrase, that moment of lifelong learning to just enrich your own capabilities and perspectives.

BENNETT MASON

That's similar to what you were saying, Shirley, about encouraging people to really immerse themselves in in the course and commit to it fully.

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

Yeah. Close your eyes, hold your nose and jump in. Like, it is very, very worthwhile. But don't just stick your toe in the water because you won't get back from it what you can.

BENNETT MASON

Tim, which is a different experience to folks who do it in person, of course. What was it like, though, doing the CDC online?

TIM LONGSTAFF

There was a benefit in a way. I think we did, sort of like a day a week for a period of five weeks. And I quite liked that because it gave you a chance to really consolidate the learning and reflect in between modules, rather than five straight days where I think it feels it could be just an avalanche of learning. The second was, to the point that others have made. You still have to go out of your way to form your cohorts and meet people. And so, in my case, did form a study group with people who were from nearby and had a similar background and skills to me. And that proved to be very valuable. But it had to be a virtual study group rather than an actual one. So don't be put off by online. And in some ways, it can be more convenient. But there are also benefits to the face to face, no doubt.

BENNETT MASON

Shirley, you've had a diverse and very interesting career. How did the CDC help to shape your career, though? Can you tell us about that?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

It changed the course of my career in ways that I could never have imagined. Getting that scholarship, sent me on a broad career on an as a CEO. It opened possibilities up that I would never have imagined myself taking before doing the CDC. And so that's why you just don't know what's coming. It really, I can't underestimate it. I am so grateful for that scholarship. With young kids, I couldn't have done the course at the time. And it really opened up avenues that I couldn't have imagined.

BENNETT MASON

Now say someone's listening to this podcast and they’re still a bit undecided. They’re still considering whether they should enrol in the Company Directors Course or not. Shirley, what would your pitch be? Why should someone do the course?

SHIRLEY CHOWDHARY

So, it doesn't matter what stage of your career you're at. I've seen people in the groups who are in their 20s and want to get a better understanding of governance, corporate governance. And obviously we've talked about people who are CEOs and later on in their careers wanting to do it or aspiring directors. There is real benefit in the learning. There's always benefit in learning. But in this case with the CDC, you will get something out of it regardless of what stage in your career you're at. Because it is all applicable, regardless of whether you're in a not-for-profit or an ASX-listed company. And the CDC has changed hugely over 50 years. Like every year we sit down and every six months we sit down, we review materials, we update them. But also, as Tim said, the formats now, there are so many different ways you can do the CDC. You can do five days in a row, you can do one day, every week for five weeks. You can start on a Monday, start on a Tuesday. We start the courses at different times. You can do them as an in-residential program. You can do them in every state and region. There is a diverse range of ways to do it. And so, you can find a way that suits you and suits your form of learning. So, I think look for that. Look at the different ways you can do it. And don't underestimate  how useful it is going to be. I couldn't have gone on. I just don't think I could have gone on to my board career without it, and I couldn't have gone on to my CEO role because it put all of that into perspective. For the first time, I was in the boardroom for every board meeting, and I had a much better idea of everybody else's perspective in that boardroom. So out of the course comes huge opportunity. And open yourself up for that.

BENNETT MASON

That's a great point about the range of options students now have for doing the course there. There are many different possibilities out there. What about you, Nicky? If someone's thinking about whether to do the course or not, what would your final bit of advice be?

NICKY SPARSHOTT

Just do it. Why? Just do it. Because whether you’re in a not-for-profit or whether you're in an organisation or in government, your ability to craft really compelling strategy to anchor that in an understanding of the environment that you're in and the risk. To do it in a way that's commercially savvy and financially responsible is always going to be part of what you need to do to be successful. And this just gives you access to materials and a wonderful group of people that you can tap into so that you don't need to navigate that alone. And also, not need to assume that the experience that has brought you to this place will necessarily be relevant moving forward. So, I just think it keeps you really fresh and today's climate, I think, necessitates people being curious, courageous and open.

BENNETT MASON

Tim, I'll give you the final word. Nicky and Shirley have done a great job convincing people why they should do the course, but why do you think it's so worthwhile for people to do the CDC?

TIM LONGSTAFF

Being a director now, it's not something you do in retirement to keep you busy. It's not something that you do because it looks good on your CV and gets you into all the right places. It's a serious undertaking and needs to be approached with serious intent and therefore you do need to adopt the mindset of the learning and do the work in order to acquit that role with the seriousness that it deserves. And there's no better place to start to equip you with the skills and the knowledge than the CDC. Having said that, that's the beginning of the journey. The lifelong learning continues. But you have to start somewhere in the CDC is the best place to start. It gives you an excellent helicopter overview of all aspects of the role upon which you can subsequently build.

BENNETT MASON

I think that's a great note to end on. Thanks very much to our three guests. We were joined by Shirley Chowdhury, Tim Longstaff and Nicky Sparshott. Thanks very much for your time.